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ifi Zen Phono Review (phono stage)

Rate this phono stage:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 14 9.5%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 66 44.6%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther

    Votes: 54 36.5%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 14 9.5%

  • Total voters
    148

Frank Dernie

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Hmm, why not show a model of this then?
Exasperation really.
I am not a teacher I am a retired engineer.

A distributed mass analysis of a complete system is very much simpler to do today than it was when I was doing it 50 years ago but still not easy.

I expect any big manufacturers who have done it haven't published results, I haven't seen any information leading me to believe any of the boutique makers do it now.

All of what we see on forums and in magazines show record players are more about fashion justified by a lot of quasi-technical BS to sell over priced jewellery IMO, not serious engineering or accurate transduction.

I keep 4 record players because I like their engineering from my previous experience but don't use LPs as a principle source any more and, as you can no doubt tell, am mainly unimpressed by what is being sold today.
 

mike70

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I only want to learn something new from people that claims skills about it.
That's all ... but surely is the wrong path to say "is complex ... you can't".

Maybe you can post some good paper / article about it
 

Frank Dernie

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I only want to learn something new from people that claims skills about it.
That's all ... but surely is the wrong path to say "is complex ... you can't".

Maybe you can post some paper / article about it
I haven't looked in decades and there is a good chance the B&K engineering data has not been scanned, I haven't looked, but I haven't seen anything new in record player fundamental engineering analysis/fact since the 1970s.

I am not a teacher but I suspect that unless somebody showed a particular aptitude for physics as a child and chose to study it and maybe engineering for a few years it may easily be so complex they won't understand it.

I think part of the problem is and has been trying to explain something complex with simplifications which change the salient points.
 

Thorsten Loesch

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Exasperation really.
I am not a teacher I am a retired engineer.

Well, I always have taken the position that if you understand something well, you can also explain it in simple terms laypeople understand. And I'm not a teacher but a semi-retired engineer.

A distributed mass analysis of a complete system is very much simpler to do today than it was when I was doing it 50 years ago but still not easy.

Yes, we can simulate complex systems much better now.

I expect any big manufacturers who have done it haven't published results, I haven't seen any information leading me to believe any of the boutique makers do it now.

All of what we see on forums and in magazines show record players are more about fashion justified by a lot of quasi-technical BS to sell over priced jewellery IMO, not serious engineering or accurate transduction.

So you consider me suggesting a (original, not the new super price) Technics SL-1210 with it's non-rigid arm and a Denon DL-103 as a great match for this Turntable/Tonearm (because the Arm in non rigid) as "fashion justified by a lot of quasi-technical BS to sell over priced jewellery IMO"?

Interesting.

I keep 4 record players because I like their engineering from my previous experience but don't use LPs as a principle source any more and, as you can no doubt tell, am mainly unimpressed by what is being sold today.

I gave Vinyl up when I moved to Asia. Nowadays I'm digital all the way.

Easier to move a 10T NAS between countries than 10,000 LP's.

Thor
 

MaxwellsEq

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Thorsten Loesch

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This damp's the fundamental VLF resonance, it does little to damp other resonances in the system.

That said, it is a good idea. For the 1210 you could (can?) get the SME style damper that is mounted near the pivot. Not as effective as damping at the headshell, but also less hassle in use.

Still can it seems:

KAB TD-1000™ TONEARM FLUID DAMPER FOR Technics SL1000R / 1200-1210 GAE, G, & GR, 1500C & MK7

For many years the "Reference" turntable at AMR/iFi was modified SL1210 (Gold edition). Among many other modifications it also had the fluid damper.

It was actually a better and less fussy setup than many high $ "High End" Turntables and allowed easy cartridge change for developing Phono Preamplifiers.

Thor
 

MaxwellsEq

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This damp's the fundamental VLF resonance, it does little to damp other resonances in the system.

That said, it is a good idea. For the 1210 you could (can?) get the SME style damper that is mounted near the pivot. Not as effective as damping at the headshell, but also less hassle in use.

Still can it seems:

KAB TD-1000™ TONEARM FLUID DAMPER FOR Technics SL1000R / 1200-1210 GAE, G, & GR, 1500C & MK7

For many years the "Reference" turntable at AMR/iFi was modified SL1210 (Gold edition). Among many other modifications it also had the fluid damper.

It was actually a better and less fussy setup than many high $ "High End" Turntables and allowed easy cartridge change for developing Phono Preamplifiers.

Thor
Subjectivist reviews claimed the resulting design produced exceptionally stable imaging and a neutral frequency response with good low frequency extension. Criticism included a lack of "air" and a "dry" bass.

To me subjectively it sounded more like master tape and lacked the excessive "richness" and "sweetness" (compared to master tape) of many turntable, arm and cartridge combinations. I wondered if people were listening to, and liking, resonances.
 

Frank Dernie

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So you consider me suggesting a (original, not the new super price) Technics SL-1210 with it's non-rigid arm and a Denon DL-103 as a great match for this Turntable/Tonearm (because the Arm in non rigid) as "fashion justified by a lot of quasi-technical BS to sell over priced jewellery IMO"?
WTF are you on about????

I said nothing specific at all and you have no idea what I consider of a SL1210 with DL103.

Referring to a non-rigid arm is daft.
No arm is rigid, and whether more or less rigid is more accurate depends on the whole assembly.

In fact the “rigid is better” mantra in record player design is the classic evidence of how badly understood the whole thing is by enthusiasts.
 
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Frank Dernie

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Well, I always have taken the position that if you understand something well, you can also explain it in simple terms laypeople understand.
My experience is that oversimplification is a common cause of misunderstanding when trying to explain something to somebody lacking the knowledge to understand it.
 

Bob from Florida

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My experience is that oversimplification is a common cause of misunderstanding when trying to explain something to somebody lacking the knowledge to understand it.
My experience is it is rare to find someone that really understands a complex subject and is able to explain it to the average person. Once in awhile you find someone like that. Those individuals make very good teachers.
 

Frank Dernie

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My experience is it is rare to find someone that really understands a complex subject and is able to explain it to the average person. Once in awhile you find someone like that. Those individuals make very good teachers.
I look forward to meeting someone like this one day, but not much time left I am 72.

The teachers I had were generally teaching the next stage of a subject to a bunch of students who already had a grounding and a certain level of existing knowledge of the subject.

I am not convinced that anybody can successfully explain something complex to somebody who showed no aptitude or interest in a subject as a child. If they therefore hadn’t studied it to any level from which they had a foundation for understanding it would be similar to teaching them a new alphabet and language. A l-o-n-g time
 
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Bob from Florida

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I am not convinced that anybody can successfully explain something complex to somebody who showed no aptitude or interest in a subject as a child. If they therefore hadn’t studied it to any level from which they had a foundation for understanding it would be similar to teaching them a new alphabet and language. A l-o-n-g time
The rare individuals capable of this feat present analogies recognizable to the average person. This has to be done without using the language of mathematics, which may not be in the vocabulary of the average individual.

For example - Denon 103 is a low compliance cartridge which works best with higher mass tonearms. "Why is that?" - asks the average person that is interested. Well you could say "low compliance means the cantilever is harder to move up and down and side to side". "The vertical and horizontal wiggles (recorded music) in the record grooves will tend to move a lighter arm some instead of just moving the cantilever". "A heavier arm with proper vertical tracking force will hold the cartridge steadier and get more output from the cartridge". No math involved and gets the point across.

I did not proof read the first draft very well - so, I fixed it.
 
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cgallery

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Wood wand, unipivot with elastic constraint and damping, Sorbothane-like counterweight. Yes the majority of the counterweight is Sorbothane-like (similar to Sorbothane but Sorbothane is a trademark).

PXL_20230225_173057493.jpg
 

Frank Dernie

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For example - Denon 103 is a low compliance cartridge which works best with higher mass tonearms. "Why is that?" - asks the average person that is interested. Well you could say "low compliance means the cantilever is harder to move up and down and side to side due to the vertical and horizontal wiggles (recorded music) in the record grooves". "A heavier arm with proper vertical tracking force will hold the cartridge steadier and get more output from the cartridge". No math involved and gets the point across.
That isn’t what I’m talking about here though.

I have used that type of way to explain simple things like that. It is technically not an accurate explanation though.

Edit I should write not dynamically an accurate explanation.
 
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OldHvyMec

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I have used that type of way to explain simple things like that. It is technically not an accurate explanation though.
When speaking to most people on earth this is a requirement if you want to get along and not sound like a squint!
What is a squint? A technical person that can't relate to the common man/woman without them taking a big gulp
from their drink and walking away. Many people understand the technical nomenclature, BUT as ladies and gentleman
I try not to make others feel anything but comfortable and safe either by understanding the topic or not. I find good
manners and patience in the presentation is all the masses need. Carl Sagan was a perfect example of a genius approach
that captured his audiences with simple explanations coupled along with extraordinary visuals.

He was a exceptional teacher. I NEVER took a gulp and walked away. BTW I don't consume spirits!

OTOH few squints catch my fancy with their technical jargon, but then I'm not a squint. I'm an old worn out heavy mechanic
that had to figure out what they were saying. I alway did, in spite of how simple most thing are. I don't need the history
of toilets to appreciate the appeal of a hole in the ground vs a throne!

Fruit for thought.

With great respect and Regards
 

Thorsten Loesch

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For example - Denon 103 is a low compliance cartridge which works best with higher mass tonearms. "Why is that?" - asks the average person that is interested. Well you could say "low compliance means the cantilever is harder to move up and down and side to side". "The vertical and horizontal wiggles (recorded music) in the record grooves will tend to move a lighter arm some instead of just moving the cantilever". "A heavier arm with proper vertical tracking force will hold the cartridge steadier and get more output from the cartridge". No math involved and gets the point across.

Allow me to enlarge.

Because we have a stiffer spring and a larger mass moving, we ideally apply additional damping to the arm, because the stiffer spring and greater mass will result in MORE movement at the resonance frequency.

Just compare to a car suspension, imagine you put very heavy wheels and tyres onto more stiff suspension. Without an shock absorber the wheel will oscillate more violently. Add a shock damper, voila, the oscillation is damped.

The LF resonance of arm & cartridge are not really that different.

But we are talking about a second set of resonances.

A tonearm is ultimately related to a bridge. It is a bridge between two points, one more or less fixed point (ideally the pivot is fixed 100% dynamically from the view of the cartridge in the audio range) and one that is suspended (by the cartridge cantilever and it's suspension and damper).

We know bridges have bending modes that have their own resonances. The famous "Army unit collapsing a bridge marching over it in lock step" story illustrates this. We are talking about the same resonances.

http://scihi.org/broughton-suspension-bridge-resonance-disaster/

Typical old style tonearm's use constant wall thickness and constant diameter tubing. This obviously makes for a structure with a strong single resonance. Now resonance can be damped using a rubber type damper at the end (or both ends) of the tube. Damping resonances at the end of a structure is known as edge termination and is for example used in speaker drivers where the same problem exists. The rubber surround and the "lip" attached to the code edge perform that damping.

One can also use a rubbery insert in the tube that produces some damping or coat the inside of tube. This is rarely done due to the added complexity. Using a "S-Shaped" tube breaks up resonances into multiple sections that have higher resonance frequencies, with the fundamental resonance reduced.

Given that the pivot needs to be rigid, the point where the tube resonance can be terminated and damped is the headshell end. Moreover, the headshell end is also the point where we vibrate the tube with energy passed from stylus and cantilever.

Having a rigid coupling between Cartridge/Headshell will be most efficient in sending vibration energy into the arm tube and will in turn excite sympathetic resonance, which will in turn vibrate the cartridge, leading to an unwanted input into the cartridge. So it is desirable to defeat or minimise these resonances and isolate the cartridge from them, as well as isolating the arm from the cartridge's vibration energy.

Having a lossy connection between Arm and headshell makes the conduction of vibration energy less effective and can provide edge/end termination of resonances in the Arm structure. It will also reduce the conduction back into the cartridge of any resonant energy of the arm tube resonance.

Even without resonance, vibration energy send into the arm structure will propagate as wave in the metal to the pivot point where it will reflect back to the source. A good illustration is the wave reflection in a water tank. A similar process applies to high frequency cables in electronics:


Having an Arm structure that is not "regular" (varying tube diameter and varying in wall thickness) can reduce resonance, but not reflections. To cancel reflections needs additional damping in such a structure. Rigid coupling between Headshell and Arm Tube will maximally transmit vibration energy back & force. And no, the Arm Pivot and weight of structure attached to it does not "ground" or "drain" vibration energy, the more rigid the pivot etc. the more energy is reflected back towards the cartridge.

The next part in the system is the cartridge. Older cartridges have cases with a very loose coupling between the actual pickup and usually plastic case. Some cartridges (e.g. reportedly the Denon DL-103) are even designed to have deliberate anti-resonance in the cartridge case for resonances in the pickup (Generator, Cantilever & Stylus).

Others, especially modern "High End" cartridges have rigid cases and rigid links between case and pickup. This creates differing conditions for the propagation of vibrational energy from stylus & cantilever into the Arm structure and back.

For the DL-103 the top plate of the case should be allowed to resonate freely. The included soft plastic O-Rings should be placed between headshell and cartridge. They from a first line of damping and lossy coupling. Note this is strictly applicable to DL-103.

For the DL-103, the Arm should not be of a rigid type, to further avoid transmitting vibration energy into the Arm structure and resonant and reflected energy from returning to the cartridge.

Other Cartridge/Arm combinations need to be considered individually.

The HiFi News Test LP should be used to adjust effective arm weight to get the VLF resonance frequency right. Some form of fluid or eddy current damper is desirable to damp the VLF resonance.

Placing led tape at the golden ratio point on the arm tube can be used to adjust effective arm weight AND to provide damping of both resonances and vibration transmission. One can also shift the tape along the length of the arm to find the "best spot".

If a spring based anti-skating mechanism is used, ideally this is removed and replaced with a string/weight Anti-skate.

See here, two arms have lead tape. Only the Ortofon Arm which is designed together with the SPU Cartridge and Headshell as system is left without " tweaking"

turn.jpg


Thor
 
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Frank Dernie

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When speaking to most people on earth this is a requirement if you want to get along and not sound like a squint!
What is a squint? A technical person that can't relate to the common man/woman without them taking a big gulp
from their drink and walking away. Many people understand the technical nomenclature, BUT as ladies and gentleman
I try not to make others feel anything but comfortable and safe either by understanding the topic or not. I find good
manners and patience in the presentation is all the masses need. Carl Sagan was a perfect example of a genius approach
that captured his audiences with simple explanations coupled along with extraordinary visuals.

He was a exceptional teacher. I NEVER took a gulp and walked away. BTW I don't consume spirits!

OTOH few squints catch my fancy with their technical jargon, but then I'm not a squint. I'm an old worn out heavy mechanic
that had to figure out what they were saying. I alway did, in spite of how simple most thing are. I don't need the history
of toilets to appreciate the appeal of a hole in the ground vs a throne!

Fruit for thought.

With great respect and Regards
I had a good relationship with the mechanics I worked with, but they weren't what you refer to as a commom man/woman, they were experts in their field and knew where their expertise began and ended and asked me what to do if the issue they had came under my remit. Almost none of them tried to understand the engineering of what I had designed but did their side of the job brilliantly.

Two problems can arise. If somebody asks a question wthe answer to which they are unlikely to bave the base knowledge to understand in normal chatting it is best to change the subject, but on forums like this some people come back over and over again.
The second, again on forums, rarely in real life, is when there is somebody who is totally convinced they understand, when they don't.

One has two choices - facepalm and ignore or try to help.

It seems the best is the former, but on a forum named Audio Science Review attempting the latter is surely expected?

Anyway, if people are insulted I'll leave them to Thor!
 

Thorsten Loesch

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Anyway, if people are insulted I'll leave them to Thor!

So you are implying my "popular science" level explanation is fundamentally wrong, but you are not prepared to correct me.

Thank you.

Thor
 

Frank Dernie

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So you are implying my "popular science" level explanation is fundamentally wrong, but you are not prepared to correct me.

Thank you.

Thor
You are determinedly wrong, but very enthusiastic and bang on, and on, and on.
The facts are available in textbooks so I'll leave you to study them. Or continue not to.
 
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