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Sigberg Audio Manta (12" wideband cardioid active speakers) development thread
- Thread starter sigbergaudio
- Start date
OP
- Thread Starter
- #242
Here's ~listening axis (10 degrees), +/-2.5dB:
And 0-30-60:
Cardioid data later or tomorrow.
And 0-30-60:
Cardioid data later or tomorrow.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #243
Studying the measurements from the Klippel and combining it with what I'm hearing, it's getting clear that this speaker doesn't completely follow normal conventions, and you can't just tune it flat on-axis and assume it will sound balanced.
For instance around 500hz the Manta is 3dB down at 40 degrees, while a typical speaker is maybe 1dB down. So the directivity is more narrow than usual in the front as well. At 60 degrees a regular speaker is perhaps 2dB down at 400hz, the Manta is 4dB down. At 90 degrees the Manta is 8dB down at 400hz. More common would be around 4dB. On a smaller speaker perhaps just 3dB.
Since the cardioid effect is unusually wideband, it also falls off pretty hard in the higher frequencies.
So the Manta is freaking awesome at +/-40 degrees, which covers any natural listening area. If you go more off-axis than that you may experience some imbalance in the sound. Not so much that you'd react at a party, but enough that it's interesting to observe. In my living room they're placed at a wall that ends on one side, so you can basically walk around the speaker towards the kitchen area. As you pass the speaker at around 90 degrees, the bass seemingly disappears. Very interesting experience.
The preliminary "official" measurements from the Klippel is +/-2.5dB, but this is 1-2dB down in the 120-350hz area compared to how they were originally tuned based on listening sessions. I suspect at least some of that lift will sneak back in to get it balanced.
They're now situated in my somewhat larger living room (as opposed to my dedicated listening room), the area is open to both sides and maybe 50-60m^2. Similar to the smaller room, there's more ambient / immersive sound and wider soundstage than normal, and also an addictive almost visceral punch / feel in the midbass even at moderate volume.
Aaaaaaaaaanyway, the conclusion from the Klippel session is that the Caridioid systems are definitely operational. After studying 90-120-150-180 degrees we can define a .."dispersion characteristics specification" as follows:
Cardioid dispersion characteristics (120-180°):
~100-500hz: 10-12dB attentuation
~500hz-1khz: 16-20dB attentuation
~1-5khz: 25dB attentuation
This is a more wide-band cardioid effect than I'm aware of in any other speaker.
Here's on-axis vs 180 degrees. The 180 degrees curve is now more even in the 100-500hz area than earlier, and the effect is good in the entire band. With the "entire band" I'm referring to ~50-5,000hz. Above that the dispersion is very narrow even in regular speakers.
What does this mean in terms of energy into the room? In the previous iteration I claimed a 30% reduction in energy at 90 degrees, and 50% at 180 degrees compared to a traditional speaker. This is now increased to >40% at 90 degrees and >60%(!) at 180 degrees. The comparison speaker is the average dispersion of three different speakers with similar baffle size.
In summary: 40-60% of the reflected energy in the 90-180 degrees area on both sides of the speakers are removed at the root.
For instance around 500hz the Manta is 3dB down at 40 degrees, while a typical speaker is maybe 1dB down. So the directivity is more narrow than usual in the front as well. At 60 degrees a regular speaker is perhaps 2dB down at 400hz, the Manta is 4dB down. At 90 degrees the Manta is 8dB down at 400hz. More common would be around 4dB. On a smaller speaker perhaps just 3dB.
Since the cardioid effect is unusually wideband, it also falls off pretty hard in the higher frequencies.
So the Manta is freaking awesome at +/-40 degrees, which covers any natural listening area. If you go more off-axis than that you may experience some imbalance in the sound. Not so much that you'd react at a party, but enough that it's interesting to observe. In my living room they're placed at a wall that ends on one side, so you can basically walk around the speaker towards the kitchen area. As you pass the speaker at around 90 degrees, the bass seemingly disappears. Very interesting experience.
The preliminary "official" measurements from the Klippel is +/-2.5dB, but this is 1-2dB down in the 120-350hz area compared to how they were originally tuned based on listening sessions. I suspect at least some of that lift will sneak back in to get it balanced.
They're now situated in my somewhat larger living room (as opposed to my dedicated listening room), the area is open to both sides and maybe 50-60m^2. Similar to the smaller room, there's more ambient / immersive sound and wider soundstage than normal, and also an addictive almost visceral punch / feel in the midbass even at moderate volume.
Aaaaaaaaaanyway, the conclusion from the Klippel session is that the Caridioid systems are definitely operational.
After studying 90-120-150-180 degrees we can define a .."dispersion characteristics specification" as follows:Cardioid dispersion characteristics (120-180°):
~100-500hz: 10-12dB attentuation
~500hz-1khz: 16-20dB attentuation
~1-5khz: 25dB attentuation
This is a more wide-band cardioid effect than I'm aware of in any other speaker.
Here's on-axis vs 180 degrees. The 180 degrees curve is now more even in the 100-500hz area than earlier, and the effect is good in the entire band. With the "entire band" I'm referring to ~50-5,000hz. Above that the dispersion is very narrow even in regular speakers.
What does this mean in terms of energy into the room? In the previous iteration I claimed a 30% reduction in energy at 90 degrees, and 50% at 180 degrees compared to a traditional speaker. This is now increased to >40% at 90 degrees and >60%(!) at 180 degrees. The comparison speaker is the average dispersion of three different speakers with similar baffle size.
In summary: 40-60% of the reflected energy in the 90-180 degrees area on both sides of the speakers are removed at the root.
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Could you please post then also the full CTA-2034-A spinorama or the horizontal and vertical NFS measurements so @pierre can also include them in https://www.spinorama.org/?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #245
I would love to, but Seas doesn't have the NFS module, so I can only take individual, manual measurements.
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What a pity, although you could just take then 18 horizontal and 36 vertical manual measurements
OP
- Thread Starter
- #247
What a pity, although you could just take then 18 horizontal and 36 vertical manual measurements
Yeees, theoretically. We will see.
OP
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Knowledgeable readers know the limitations of the Harman score and if you still worry about it you could just upload the CTA-2034-A plot.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #250
What about the not-so-knowledgeable readers? I fear they may be the majority.
EDIT: Not because they're stupid of course, but because it takes some time to understand these things, and it may not be the main interest of most.
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I strongly doubt such people would buy anyway the Manta so its not a real problem imho.What about the not-so-knowledgeable readers? I fear they may be the majority.
Looks very nice indeed! I'm impressed by the constant incremental advancements you make @sigbergaudio
It speaks to incredible dedication and focus on details.
I agree about tuning, I don't think constant directivity designs can compare directly to normal speakers for in-room balance. Looking at the cardioide effect at 90 degrees I would speculate if the sudden shift in directivity would lead us to focus on that transition area unless compensated a little for.
This is right around the area where you have an intentional dip in the listening window. Coincidence? Perhaps, but interesting nonetheless.
It speaks to incredible dedication and focus on details.
I agree about tuning, I don't think constant directivity designs can compare directly to normal speakers for in-room balance. Looking at the cardioide effect at 90 degrees I would speculate if the sudden shift in directivity would lead us to focus on that transition area unless compensated a little for.
This is right around the area where you have an intentional dip in the listening window. Coincidence? Perhaps, but interesting nonetheless.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #253
@Absolute Thank you for your kind words.
With regards to the response, this speaker has taken first a lot of measurements to get the cardioid right, and then a lot of listening to get the sound right. I also have shifted to using only very low Q filters (0.5-0.7) for corrections / tonal adjustments. So the response won't be ruler smooth like some, but that approach sounds subjectively better.
And yes as you say, the off-axis response and combined energy must be considered. Which means it may not look perfect looking at just one axis, but the sum is as it should be.
The SBS.1 has been revised with only low Q filters as well, that speaker is still very tidy even with the low Q approach:
With regards to the response, this speaker has taken first a lot of measurements to get the cardioid right, and then a lot of listening to get the sound right. I also have shifted to using only very low Q filters (0.5-0.7) for corrections / tonal adjustments. So the response won't be ruler smooth like some, but that approach sounds subjectively better.
And yes as you say, the off-axis response and combined energy must be considered. Which means it may not look perfect looking at just one axis, but the sum is as it should be.
The SBS.1 has been revised with only low Q filters as well, that speaker is still very tidy even with the low Q approach:
One of the few most interesting recent products in audio!One step closer to opening the presales, product photos are now up on the website.
View attachment 261750
See the rest here: https://www.sigbergaudio.no/no/products/sigberg-audio-manta-1-active-speakers
OP
- Thread Starter
- #255
That's highly appreciated, thank you!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #257
...And we're finally live with a period of limited preorders!
www.sigbergaudio.no
active loudspeakers wideband cardioid Sigberg Audio MANTA
wideband Cardioid speakers, cardioid bass, dynamic range the most efficient and high sensitivity cardioid hifi speakers. 12" midbass driver, designed for subwoofers
The following got me, a noob, a bit confused. Aren’t these two statements contradictory? Was the reduced efficiency avoided or not?
Post 42
”As the frequency range of a cardioid system increases, you'll get gradually increasing cancellation towards the front and reduced efficiency. This is avoided by setting up a cardioid system with a more narrow frequency band.”
Post 243
”Since the cardioid effect is unusually wideband, it also falls off pretty hard in the higher frequencies.”
Post 42
”As the frequency range of a cardioid system increases, you'll get gradually increasing cancellation towards the front and reduced efficiency. This is avoided by setting up a cardioid system with a more narrow frequency band.”
Post 243
”Since the cardioid effect is unusually wideband, it also falls off pretty hard in the higher frequencies.”
OP
- Thread Starter
- #259
I understand how that could be misunderstood.
The reason why we can have both wideband and high efficiency, is because there are two individual cardioid systems. The 12" midbass driver and the coax driver are in two individual cardioid enclosures covering separate parts of the audio band. So the lower system covers ~80-600hz, and the upper system covers from 600hz and up to the point where the naturally narrow dispersion of the tweeter takes effect.
Ok then got it from start but the second quote threw me off. Hence confused .
While being a noob I have this fantasy (one must dream right?) to trial and error something using Purifi 10 inch and waveguided bliesma t34b crossing around 1200hz. I assume the D&D 8c woofer suffers from cancellation in its upper frequencies then?
.While being a noob I have this fantasy (one must dream right?) to trial and error something using Purifi 10 inch and waveguided bliesma t34b crossing around 1200hz. I assume the D&D 8c woofer suffers from cancellation in its upper frequencies then?
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