Help me pick an endgame IEM

[gallionetech]

I hear that the newer Etymotics have a different tuning to the one I used to own. Mine was an ER4P which I bought about 15 years ago. It was thin sounding and lacked bass, even when a proper seal was achieved.

I would also second your recommendation for proper foam tips which fit. Getting a good fit on an IEM is even more important than its published frequency response or any other criteria! This is because failing to seal your ear canal will result in a FR which is all over the place, not to mention sound leakage and the likelihood it will fall out. Also, there is no guarantee that published IEM freq response will match how they will perform in your ears and with your auditory canal.

This is my approach when buying IEM's:

- Because you will be tuning the frequency response to your liking, a starting FR which approximates your goal is important, but not as important as low distortion. Published specs gets you into the ballpark, but you must listen and try them on before buying. Try on as many IEM's as possible, or if not - buy from a seller who accepts returns.
- Higher sensitivity IEM's as a rule are more versatile
- The first thing you should buy after your IEM are a pair of COMPLY foam tips - check if your IEM is compatible on their website. These provide the best fit in my experience.
- Cables with these features are important: (1) detachable because the most common point of failure is from the solder joint which attaches it to the IEM, (2) non-microphonic, (3) correct connector - you can sometimes get more volume from balanced connectors (depending on your DAP) which might help if your IEM's are low sensitivity, (4) stiffness - I find softer cables easier to tangle itself into a spaghetti like mess which is annoying when you pull it out of its case, and (5) if the IEM is heavy, an ear loop helps it stay secure.

Thanks for this! I went with the Monarch MKII's from Headphones.com so if I don't like them I can return or exchange them within a year period.

Will try out those tips, thanks!

 

[Keith_W]

Eartips for your IEM's are very important. You will be surprised by how much they can change the sound. I would not be exaggerating if I told you that changing tips gives you a completely different IEM. A poor seal removes bass and makes the IEM sound softer as if it has lost efficiency. OTOH foam seals increase bass and reduce the treble. This is why the second most important thing to do, besides ensuring a proper seal, is applying EQ.

Remember that all sound transducers (speakers, headphones, IEM's) perform differently in your home, or on your head, than they do in someone's lab or measurement microphone. Reviews, whether they are objective or subjective, only get you so far. How they actually perform depends on the shape and length of your ear canal, how much earwax is in there, the size and shape of your middle ear, the quality and type of your seal, and to a lesser extent the quality of electronics you are pairing them with. Of course you should avoid any product with freq response which is wildly deviant from the ideal target, but quite often these reviewers who advocate "objective" testing forget that simply putting them in YOUR ears instead of their measurement microphone will change the freq response. Changing the earbuds will change the freq response. Dislodging the earphones only slightly changes the freq response. And let's not forget, using a different measurement setup changes the freq response. So don't get too hung up on ideal freq response. Listen to the IEM's, decide where you want to EQ, and make sure that the IEM you are considering has low distortion in the areas where you want to EQ. For me, the priorities for published specs are: not too much deviation from ideal FR, low distortion, and sensitivity. After that comes materials, construction, styling, and features.

Silicon tips and foam tips sound different, and which one you prefer depends on which is more comfortable for you, your sound preference, and how much isolation you want. A good fitting foam tip provides the most isolation, but isolation has its downsides - you are more likely to run into problems with microphonics, and you will be aware of sounds you don't normally pay attention to (e.g. don't wear tight sealing IEM's and eat, because the sound of your teeth grinding against your food will drive you nuts). It is important that they fit well enough that the earphones don't move when you go about your activity because that will change how it performs.

Also, too much isolation is not good if you are in traffic or in any situation where you need to be aware of your surroundings. For this reason, I have 2 pairs of IEM's - a Noble Audio Khan which is my "reference" IEM (fitted with foam earbuds), and a pair of B&W P17 wireless IEM's which are less isolating and good for commuting, the gym, or cycling.

I see that you have already ordered your headphones. I forgot to mention that you could consider the AKG K3003i. These are made by Harman themselves, so of course they comply with the Harman target. I have tried them and for me they sound great. However they have a serious downside which is a deal-breaker for me: the cables are not detachable. Like I said previously, cables are a common point of failure especially where they attach to the IEM and the jack which receives the most mechanical stress. I will not buy any IEM with a non-detachable cable so the K3003i's were no-go for me. More than 30 years of using earphones and then IEM's have taught me this lesson so I am more fussy about cables than most people (see my previous post).

 

[gallionetech]

Eartips for your IEM's are very important. You will be surprised by how much they can change the sound. I would not be exaggerating if I told you that changing tips gives you a completely different IEM. A poor seal removes bass and makes the IEM sound softer as if it has lost efficiency. OTOH foam seals increase bass and reduce the treble. This is why the second most important thing to do, besides ensuring a proper seal, is applying EQ.

Remember that all sound transducers (speakers, headphones, IEM's) perform differently in your home, or on your head, than they do in someone's lab or measurement microphone. Reviews, whether they are objective or subjective, only get you so far. How they actually perform depends on the shape and length of your ear canal, how much earwax is in there, the size and shape of your middle ear, the quality and type of your seal, and to a lesser extent the quality of electronics you are pairing them with. Of course you should avoid any product with freq response which is wildly deviant from the ideal target, but quite often these reviewers who advocate "objective" testing forget that simply putting them in YOUR ears instead of their measurement microphone will change the freq response. Changing the earbuds will change the freq response. Dislodging the earphones only slightly changes the freq response. And let's not forget, using a different measurement setup changes the freq response. So don't get too hung up on ideal freq response. Listen to the IEM's, decide where you want to EQ, and make sure that the IEM you are considering has low distortion in the areas where you want to EQ. For me, the priorities for published specs are: not too much deviation from ideal FR, low distortion, and sensitivity. After that comes materials, construction, styling, and features.

Silicon tips and foam tips sound different, and which one you prefer depends on which is more comfortable for you, your sound preference, and how much isolation you want. A good fitting foam tip provides the most isolation, but isolation has its downsides - you are more likely to run into problems with microphonics, and you will be aware of sounds you don't normally pay attention to (e.g. don't wear tight sealing IEM's and eat, because the sound of your teeth grinding against your food will drive you nuts). It is important that they fit well enough that the earphones don't move when you go about your activity because that will change how it performs.

Also, too much isolation is not good if you are in traffic or in any situation where you need to be aware of your surroundings. For this reason, I have 2 pairs of IEM's - a Noble Audio Khan which is my "reference" IEM (fitted with foam earbuds), and a pair of B&W P17 wireless IEM's which are less isolating and good for commuting, the gym, or cycling.

I see that you have already ordered your headphones. I forgot to mention that you could consider the AKG K3003i. These are made by Harman themselves, so of course they comply with the Harman target. I have tried them and for me they sound great. However they have a serious downside which is a deal-breaker for me: the cables are not detachable. Like I said previously, cables are a common point of failure especially where they attach to the IEM and the jack which receives the most mechanical stress. I will not buy any IEM with a non-detachable cable so the K3003i's were no-go for me. More than 30 years of using earphones and then IEM's have taught me this lesson so I am more fussy about cables than most people (see my previous post).

Thank you for all of this very helpful. I've ordered a couple different brands of tips to try a bunch out. I am also fussy about cables. I have custom cables (not snake oil cables just custom Paracord cables) for all my headphones. I am going to try out the cable that comes with the headphones and see if I like it. If not I'll be replacing it.

 

[GaryH]

I have 2 pairs of IEM's - a Noble Audio Khan which is my "reference" IEM

What reference would that be?

Or are you talking about its 'reference-level' $2400 price-tag?

I forgot to mention that you could consider the AKG K3003i. These are made by Harman themselves, so of course they comply with the Harman target.

Nope.

AKG K3003.pdf

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

OP if you want a Harman tuned IEM best to ignore subjective cognitive bias-colored recommendations from reviewers and other users and just look at the models near the top of the below list (scroll down for IEMs), ranked by an objective score based on frequency response conformity to the Harman target that has a 91% correlation between this predicted and actual average ratings given by listeners in controlled blind tests that eliminate such sighted cognitive biases.

AutoEq/results/RANKING.md at master · jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

Automatic headphone equalization from frequency responses - jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

github.com

 

[Keith_W]

What reference would that be?

Or are you talking about its 'reference-level' $2400 price-tag?

Missed everything I said about frequency response?

As Crinacle himself says:

"In order to proper read a FR graph, you have to know its source. A subpar looking graph on an unproven DIY rig could look pretty good compared to when the same headphone/IEM is measured on an industry-standard one, and vice versa applies. Knowing the measurement system used is half the battle in reading FR graphs, and it pains me to see how little the question “what are you measuring this on?” is asked even in data-obsessed objectivist ciricles. (sic)"

As I also said, published freq response on a test dummy is not the same FR that you hear for all the reasons I mentioned above. I don't know if you have ever used IEM's or you form your opinions only from reading test results. If you have, then you would know that merely opening your jaw will change the frequency response. Let alone the almost unrepeatability of inserting your IEM the same way every time. Having said that, I know of the importance of frequency response, which is why I strongly advocate EQ.

I just took a look at the EQ settings that I have on my DAP that I applied purely by listening and tuning to taste. I have a bass boost applied but left the mids and treble alone.

As for "reference-level' $2400 price-tag" this is the type of snide remark that is sad to see in some members on ASR. As if you have some kind of animosity for people who can afford things that you can't.

 

[markanini]

Missed everything I said about frequency response?

As Crinacle himself says:

"In order to proper read a FR graph, you have to know its source. A subpar looking graph on an unproven DIY rig could look pretty good compared to when the same headphone/IEM is measured on an industry-standard one, and vice versa applies. Knowing the measurement system used is half the battle in reading FR graphs, and it pains me to see how little the question “what are you measuring this on?” is asked even in data-obsessed objectivist ciricles. (sic)"

As I also said, published freq response on a test dummy is not the same FR that you hear for all the reasons I mentioned above. I don't know if you have ever used IEM's or you form your opinions only from reading test results. If you have, then you would know that merely opening your jaw will change the frequency response. Let alone the almost unrepeatability of inserting your IEM the same way every time. Having said that, I know of the importance of frequency response, which is why I strongly advocate EQ.

I just took a look at the EQ settings that I have on my DAP that I applied purely by listening and tuning to taste. I have a bass boost applied but left the mids and treble alone.

As for "reference-level' $2400 price-tag" this is the type of snide remark that is sad to see in some members on ASR. As if you have some kind of animosity for people who can afford things that you can't.

Not long ago I was in a debate on whether a $50 IEM that measured well objectively didn't sound good in person. I think your arguments about insertion variability and jaw orientation works in that context too.

However it's safe to say, the incentive for positive bias is much stronger for a $2400 IEM than a $50 IEM. That's why spend-ophiles and subejct-ophiles traditionally have more overlap than either has to object-ophiles. While complication by bias might be timeless, we have yet to see the level of maturity in objective analysis of IEMs like we have for headphones or, for sure, speakers.

 

[Keith_W]

However it's safe to say, the incentive for positive bias is much stronger for a $2400 IEM than a $50 IEM.

I agree with you, except on this point. Who is to say that somebody who looks at a freq response graph isn't influenced by what it shows when he posts his subjective sound impressions? I mean, you would look like a complete fool if your measurements said one thing, and your listening impressions said otherwise. Yet, as anybody who has used IEM's extensively knows - improper seal removes bass, proper seal restores it. If you don't use the correct tips for your measurement dummy, and if they happen to fit your ears, and what you hear is completely different to what your measurements show ... you are hardly going to post otherwise, are you?

I will say again that I don't think measured freq response is all you should be looking for. If there is consensus between multiple reviewers on multiple test rigs - fair enough. If the experimenter can be trusted to be sufficiently scientifically rigorous - fair enough. But even that does not remove the variability between subject to subject, from day to day, and what the actual freq response will be in your ears compared to the test dummy, provided the reviewer even spent money to buy a test dummy. I am NOT advocating the abandonment of this measurement altogether, because I think it IS important. It is far from meaningless. But - achieving the Harman curve on a test dummy does not mean you will get the same in your ears, for all the reasons I mentioned above. It gets you in the ballpark from which you accept the result or have to tune the response via EQ to your preference, hopefully without getting too much distortion in the process.

As for the $2400 IEM, some of you seem to be hung up about $2400 as if it's a lot of money. I realize your situation might be different to mine, and I do not want to boast (which is why I did NOT mention the price in my previous post - you will notice that someone else googled a very minor part of my post and turned it into an issue) so let's just say that whether something is expensive or not is a matter of perspective, okay?

 

[markanini]

I agree with you, except on this point. Who is to say that somebody who looks at a freq response graph isn't influenced by what it shows when he posts his subjective sound impressions? I mean, you would look like a complete fool if your measurements said one thing, and your listening impressions said otherwise. Yet, as anybody who has used IEM's extensively knows - improper seal removes bass, proper seal restores it. If you don't use the correct tips for your measurement dummy, and if they happen to fit your ears, and what you hear is completely different to what your measurements show ... you are hardly going to post otherwise, are you?

I will say again that I don't think measured freq response is all you should be looking for. If there is consensus between multiple reviewers on multiple test rigs - fair enough. If the experimenter can be trusted to be sufficiently scientifically rigorous - fair enough. But even that does not remove the variability between subject to subject, from day to day, and what the actual freq response will be in your ears compared to the test dummy, provided the reviewer even spent money to buy a test dummy. I am NOT advocating the abandonment of this measurement altogether, because I think it IS important. It is far from meaningless. But - achieving the Harman curve on a test dummy does not mean you will get the same in your ears, for all the reasons I mentioned above. It gets you in the ballpark from which you accept the result or have to tune the response via EQ to your preference, hopefully without getting too much distortion in the process.

As for the $2400 IEM, some of you seem to be hung up about $2400 as if it's a lot of money. I realize your situation might be different to mine, and I do not want to boast (which is why I did NOT mention the price in my previous post - you will notice that someone else googled a very minor part of my post and turned it into an issue) so let's just say that whether something is expensive or not is a matter of perspective, okay?

Don't take it from me, positive bias is a universal outcome of things you put resources and time into, audio gear, education, relationships. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and Jeff Bezos capitalized on this principle and each is more wealthy than any of us combined.

 

[Jimbob54]

What reference would that be?

View attachment 260011

Or are you talking about its 'reference-level' $2400 price-tag?


Nope.

AKG K3003.pdf

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

OP if you want a Harman tuned IEM best to ignore subjective cognitive bias-colored recommendations from reviewers and other users and just look at the models near the top of the below list (scroll down for IEMs), ranked by an objective score based on frequency response conformity to the Harman target that has a 91% correlation between this predicted and actual average ratings given by listeners in controlled blind tests that eliminate such sighted cognitive biases.

AutoEq/results/RANKING.md at master · jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

Automatic headphone equalization from frequency responses - jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

github.com

There is something of a glaring issue with that IEM ranking list.

The Blessing 2 Dusk is on twice at 2nd and 11th (87 and 81).

Obviously based on 2 different measurements, but, y'know.

 

[markanini]

There is something of a glaring issue with that IEM ranking list.

The Blessing 2 Dusk is on twice at 2nd and 11th (87 and 81).

Obviously based on 2 different measurements, but, y'know.

Prudently, Crinacles IEM measurements would have been purged, since he's kept using a generic IEC711 coupler: https://crinacle.com/2020/09/03/in-ear-fidelity-acquires-gras-setup-for-headphone-measurements/

 

[Jimbob54]

Prudently, Crinacles IEM measurements would have been purged, since he's kept using a generic IEC711 coupler: https://crinacle.com/2020/09/03/in-ear-fidelity-acquires-gras-setup-for-headphone-measurements/

Indeed. And this isnt to get into another measurebating discussion, but that list as it stands aint a solid source.

 

[gallionetech]

I just got the Monarch MKII's, to my ears they sound fantastic. They have a very similar sound to my DCA Expanses.

(Don't take this as a recommendation, as I have very limited knowledge. I'm going to see if Amir wan'ts to review them soon)

 

[GaryH]

$1000-earphones and they can't even get the polarity right (yes this is audible).

 

[_thelaughingman]

Have you considered the Sennheiser IE900? The 600s are bass heavy but definitely come recommended by bunch of reviewers

 

[GaryH]

Prudently, Crinacles IEM measurements would have been purged

They were (when duplicating Oratory), looks like that one was just overlooked. Nothing to warrant the usual FUD-stirring from some calling the whole list into question.

 

[markanini]

$1000-earphones and they can't even get the polarity right (yes this is audible).

View attachment 260656

Oof. Looks like the multi-drivers are out of phase. That's worse than the channels being out of phase because that's a easy fix, this however...

@gallionetech Might be prudent to stick to Western or Japanese brands in the future just in case.

 

[GaryH]

Have you considered the Sennheiser IE900?

Huge ear-gain suck-out:

 

[markanini]

They were, looks like that one was just overlooked. Nothing to warrant the usual FUD-stirring from some calling the whole list into question.

That's probably exactly what will happen because it's not very transparent.

 

[Jimbob54]

They were, looks like that one was just overlooked. Nothing to warrant the usual FUD-stirring from some calling the whole list into question.

There is more than one Crinacle measurement in that list.

You really want to stand by the list that has the same iem in twice with 2 vastly different scores? Or shall we just say it needs a bit of work?

 

[gallionetech]

Hey all,

So my fiancee helped me with a blind listening test today. We both agreed that we liked the Blessing 2 : Dusks better. After comparing them the Monarch MKII's sound almost a little muffled in comparison to the Blessing 2 : Dusks. They both sound good, but after testing both in a blind test I can't justify the price tag. My fiancee asked me to order a second pair of Blessing 2 : Dusks because she likes them so much.

I'm going to return them and keep the Blessing 2 : Dusks as my main IEM for now. Unless anyone has any suggestions