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AUDIOPHILES: Are We Buying "THINGS" or "EXPERIENCES?"

anotherhobby

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True, I haven't given it much time. Personality Type research has a bad record.

(my personality type is Bayesian..)
It's not a personality type. It's different biological response to stimulation. There decades of research behind it, and it does not matter at all to me if the 80% of the people that do not experience it do not "belive in" or understand it. As I said, it's very difficult to share experiences, especially with a limited vocabulary about how to discuss those things. The book does actually provide that vocabulary, but very few people have read it, and it's exahusting to educate people on. I have zero interest in debating the validity of it with anybody that has not done a very deep dive into the research and also read the book.
 

anotherhobby

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And it covers emotional sensitivity as much or more than strictly auditory.
Absolutely! You'd need to understand it though. All of the senses are deeply connected in the brain for processing, and emotion is also an input. As an example, closing my eyes stops the visual stimuation in my brain, lowers the "noise", and increses sensitivity dramatically to auditory stimulation. I frequenly close my eyes when listening to music because of this.

I don't want to draw this thead too off topic though, and I don't have the energy to start a new one only to be put on the defensive.
 

JayGilb

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It absolutely is biology, but yes attention is directly realted, and the biology explains it. If you are curious to learn about it so you can understand it, there is a massive amount of reserach behind it and it's fascinating. It's genetic, observable from birth, on MRI brain scans, and in all sorts of other ways. The strongest and easiest indicator is self identification. If you don't identfy with it, or don't have a reserach background in this area, it may be hard to understand as it's difficult to compare inner experiences. For those that do self-identify, this book is usually described as completely changing their life (this is true for me).
Looking through the provided links, it sounds like introversion is the common theme.
 

anotherhobby

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Looking through the provided links, it sounds like introversion is the common theme.
70% of people that are Highly Sensitive show introversion. Myself included. My wife is also highly sensitive, but extroverted. She is also less sensitive and does not struggle with over stimulation nearly as much as I do.
 
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MattHooper

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Looking through the provided links, it sounds like introversion is the common theme.
70% of people that are Highly Sensitive show introversion. Myself included. My wife is also highly sensitive, but extroverted. She is also less sensitive and does not struggle with over stimulation nearly as much as I do.

That reminds of what I mentioned earlier: I put an enormous amount of thought and effort in to creating my home theater/2 channel listening room (and expense!). When guests visit to watch a movie (or listen to music) the usual comment is along the lines "If I had this I'd never go out to the movie theaters again!"

And they are surprised when I say I have the opposite mind-set. I like "experiences" which to me generally mean getting out of my house - all the things to see and feel and soak in when going to a movie theater, and to experience a movie as I did mostly growing up, in the buzz of a crowd. I was one of those who often lined up for the first showing of the new Spielberg movie or other highly anticipated movie and the first night excitement, where everyone was hyped, were such a blast. So for me, both watching movies and listening to music takes a back seat to going out to experience those things. My home theater is more of a "consolation prize" when I can't get out to do "the real thing." Unfortunately for various reasons I've had to forgo most live amplified music for years, and it's been tough to get out to movies, so I do a lot of watching/listening in my room. Which, is great, but again not necessarily my first choice.

I remember over on the AVSforum (I'm a long time member) in all the home theater build threads, when the shoe dropped. I thought most building home theaters
were like me: I figured they loved going to the movies so much, they wanted to replicate some of that at home. But it turned out the opposite: plenty were building home theaters because they DIDN'T like going out to see movies! They weren't thrilled by it, had a long list of gripes about it, and where building a home theater because they loved movies, but could avoid the movie theater experience.

Takes all kinds, I guess.
 

NiagaraPete

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A bit of a philosophical question I guess.

There has been a burgeoning industry researching "happiness" and some of the findings have seeped in to the public sphere. Probably most recognizable is the finding that people tend to be most fulfilled by 'experiences' vs 'material possessions.' ('things').

E.g an old article:


So in a nutshell, money spent on, say, trips where you have an experience to remember tends to be more fulfilling than a new watch or whatever.

Which gets me to wondering: Which of these are we buying when we put together our audio system, material things or experiences?

It would seem obvious that audio gear would fit right in to the "material possessions" category. And yet it seems to me we are buying this gear to "provide experiences" - all the variety of experiences that come up listening to our favorite musicians. While amps and speakers are material things, they are also in that sense "experience machines."

If that's the case it's interesting to ponder how audio gear figures in to our happiness or quality of life.

I think it's obvious there are tons of variables at play here, but just to relate this to my own experience:

Around 2009 I decided to completely re-do my front living room in to a home theater/high end music listening room. It was a long, complicated arduous project because I "wanted it all, as best I could get, exactly how I wanted it." Somehow I got that rubik's cube finished so I have a room that is super comfy for me to read in, or to fire up the 2 channel system for music listening, or hit a remote and the projector fires up an image on a big projection screen w. surround sound.

These are all a bunch of "material things" and yet it has proved a hugely satisfying project and an on-going source of happiness and satisfaction. 12 years later and I swear I'm as giddy as the first day whenever I listen to music or see that big projected image hit the screen. It just never gets old. I surmise that this is perhaps that the room is a sort of transporter of sorts, providing me with all sorts of different experiences in terms of movies and music. It's not something passive and unchanging like a painting, jewellery, or something like that. It's constantly connecting me to the creative output of other people.

So I guess my answer to the question would be that it's both: material goods, but which provide experiences, which is why it seems to be an ongoing source of satisfaction.

What is your view on this subject?



*(BTW, I've always been a big believer in experiences over anything else. As much as I love my home theater, for instance, for me actually going out to the movies is MORE of an experience - getting out in to the world, mingling with others etc. and that for me is the best way to experience movies, and often music).
I’ve been on a couple trips that in the end I should have bought the watch you mentioned.
For me audio is both more experience now then possession.
 

bodhi

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I know where I stand. I visited my trusted dealer for no reason and demoed Focal Clear, suddenly got a feeling that I needed it. Then the dealer tipped me that the KEF R metas are released next week and that he could make me a good upgrade offer.

Luckily I got away this time. I. Don't. Need. New. Stuff.
 

elvisizer

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So in a nutshell, money spent on, say, trips where you have an experience to remember tends to be more fulfilling than a new watch or whatever.
maybe for some people but not me. both 'things' and experiences can bring happiness but I have a feeling I look at 'things' differently. for instance, if I buy a guitar the idea isn't that the guitar itself will bring me happiness, it's what i'm gonna DO with the guitar.
'things' are tools in my world generally, but even just an aesthetic item that has no other utility can still be appreciated.
 
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MattHooper

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maybe for some people but not me. both 'things' and experiences can bring happiness but I have a feeling I look at 'things' differently. for instance, if I buy a guitar the idea isn't that the guitar itself will bring me happiness, it's what i'm gonna DO with the guitar.
'things' are tools in my world generally, but even just an aesthetic item that has no other utility can still be appreciated.

Understood.

There is obviously a blurred line (if at all) between "having things" and "experiences" insofar as...well...anything and everything can count as an "experience."

If I were to try to find something of a (still blurred) line in how I'd think about what seems more obviously "a thing" vs experience, I'd appeal to something sort of inert or that doesn't have a function per se. For instance a painting, statue, and especially the "stuff of collectors" like old stamps, valuable baseball cards etc.

This is why, to my way of thinking, I don't consider myself a "collector." For instance, I certainly have a collection of records (almost 1,000 at this point), and one could point to a subsection which would be a collection of a certain type of music (e.g. I have a lot of Library/Production music from the 70's/80s), but purchasing those is not the same as "collecting" to me.

It's a bit like saying that because I have a bunch of soup in my pantry I'm a "soup collector" or we have several faucets in the house that I'd be a "faucet collector."

To me being a "collector" connotes a certain mind-set, where the mere possession of something is some reward in of itself. So for instance the collector may be driven to acquire "all the albums" by a certain artist, even if he doesn't like all of them, or "all the pressings" of a certain album in service of being a "completist" about what one possesses. Or would seek some album that is seen as "valuable" for it's rarity or deemed so by some collector community. And so even possessing those things can be enough: some don't even play them and keep them in original shrink wrap.

That's all cool for those who are in to it. I definitely have some albums that I know to be very rare and have an intriguing history and so, as objects themselves, they do give me some pleasure. Though that is entirely subservient to my main motivation which is that I use it for listening to the music, without which I wouldn't care at all for that object.

I used to collect comics growing up (though always read them) and had a pretty valuable collection. These days I don't get much out of that. I think I've grown to see something sort of off-putting about the sort of arbitrariness of "value" in terms of the collector world - that something should become super expensive only because it is deemed "valuable" but some group of collectors, just sort of rubs me the wrong way sometimes.
 

anotherhobby

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That reminds of what I mentioned earlier: I put an enormous amount of thought and effort in to creating my home theater/2 channel listening room (and expense!). When guests visit to watch a movie (or listen to music) the usual comment is along the lines "If I had this I'd never go out to the movie theaters again!"

And they are surprised when I say I have the opposite mind-set. I like "experiences" which to me generally mean getting out of my house - all the things to see and feel and soak in when going to a movie theater, and to experience a movie as I did mostly growing up, in the buzz of a crowd. I was one of those who often lined up for the first showing of the new Spielberg movie or other highly anticipated movie and the first night excitement, where everyone was hyped, were such a blast. So for me, both watching movies and listening to music takes a back seat to going out to experience those things. My home theater is more of a "consolation prize" when I can't get out to do "the real thing." Unfortunately for various reasons I've had to forgo most live amplified music for years, and it's been tough to get out to movies, so I do a lot of watching/listening in my room. Which, is great, but again not necessarily my first choice.

I remember over on the AVSforum (I'm a long time member) in all the home theater build threads, when the shoe dropped. I thought most building home theaters
were like me: I figured they loved going to the movies so much, they wanted to replicate some of that at home. But it turned out the opposite: plenty were building home theaters because they DIDN'T like going out to see movies! They weren't thrilled by it, had a long list of gripes about it, and where building a home theater because they loved movies, but could avoid the movie theater experience.

Takes all kinds, I guess.
I'd agree that is the biggest split I also see in the AVSForum home theater builds. I could never figure out which I identified with, and I eventually discovered my reasons were just different. I started my build back in 2018, but after about 300 hours of my own efforts I stopped. I've let it sit since, until I realized why I wanted one. Once I sorted that out, I cut the theater size in half and changed everything. I was making a large "theater" style room where you have rows and elevated seating, because that's what I saw and that's what everybody does. What I realized is that I want a soundproof music/movies room for me and maybe one other person, so that I can enjoy the content alone or in a more intimate two person experience. Not for a family. Not for a group. If there are going to be more people, I'd rather go to a theater. Understanding I wanted my own personal private experence has put the project back in motion.
 
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MattHooper

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I'd agree that is the biggest split I also see in the AVSForum home theater builds. I could never figure out which I identified with, and I eventually discovered my reasons were just different. I started my build back in 2018, but after about 300 hours of my own efforts I stopped. I've let it sit since, until I realized why I wanted one. Once I sorted that out, I cut the theater size in half and changed everything. I was making a large "theater" style room where you have rows and elevated seating, because that's what I saw and that's what everybody does. What I realized is that I want a soundproof music/movies room for me and maybe one other person, so that I can enjoy the content alone or in a more intimate two person experience. Not for a family. Not for a group. If there are going to be more people, I'd rather go to a theater. Understanding I wanted my own personal private experence has put the project back in motion.

Good call! Figuring out, realistically, what you want is so important. The AVSforum is littered with threads in which folks had got all excited seeing the dedicated theater builds by other people, figured that's what they wanted, but after all the work the rooms ended up being barely used. This was because it turned out people in the family weren't all that in to spending their time in a sealed, dedicated room to watch movies, and also the builder never ended up with all the friends and family watching movies that he envisioned when putting in all that seating and designing the room. Certainly some do end up using a dedicated theater quite a bit, but it's good to figure out what is most realistic for one's own situation.

In my case I didn't want a dedicated room that felt detached from the rest of the house. I wanted my movie/music room to be a normal, easily accessible room that made me want to hang out there. So our living room (front room of our house, which had become my two channel listening room over time) was transformed in to the home theater. And I made sure the decor could look open and inviting even for daytime. It worked out because I use the room every single day - whether it's reading, listening to music, watching movies, having company. Though it CAN be sealed off with curtains for an immersive effect for movies.
For me it worked out to be the best of all worlds. Other people, I understand, want to really feel isolated in their home theater room, like entering an entirely different world from the rest of the house.

Here are a couple of photos:


JUST INSIDE ROOM.jpg





Furniture Window Wood Couch Interior design



Property Table Wood Lighting Interior design
 

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Aleksandar RS

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Many "audiophile forums" (to be clear: I'm not talking about asr) live in a kind of symbiosis with the HiFi-industry and use a model borrowed from Scientology. The members are told that by investing more money - in this case by buying more expensive equipment - they reach to the next level of sophistication and consequently gain higher status amongst their peer group. In another words, audiophiles buy prestige.

There is certainly some truth in what you wrote, but I think you went a little too far. It's not all conspiracy theory. What is certain is that behind most of the well-known audio forums there is some big money behind. Unfortunately, I think that's how everything works today. It's getting harder and harder to buy something that isn't at least a little bit snake oil.
 

Aleksandar RS

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Good call! Figuring out, realistically, what you want is so important. The AVSforum is littered with threads in which folks had got all excited seeing the dedicated theater builds by other people, figured that's what they wanted, but after all the work the rooms ended up being barely used. This was because it turned out people in the family weren't all that in to spending their time in a sealed, dedicated room to watch movies, and also the builder never ended up with all the friends and family watching movies that he envisioned when putting in all that seating and designing the room. Certainly some do end up using a dedicated theater quite a bit, but it's good to figure out what is most realistic for one's own situation.

In my case I didn't want a dedicated room that felt detached from the rest of the house. I wanted my movie/music room to be a normal, easily accessible room that made me want to hang out there. So our living room (front room of our house, which had become my two channel listening room over time) was transformed in to the home theater. And I made sure the decor could look open and inviting even for daytime. It worked out because I use the room every single day - whether it's reading, listening to music, watching movies, having company. Though it CAN be sealed off with curtains for an immersive effect for movies.
For me it worked out to be the best of all worlds. Other people, I understand, want to really feel isolated in their home theater room, like entering an entirely different world from the rest of the house.

Here are a couple of photos:


View attachment 260162




Furniture Window Wood Couch Interior design



Property Table Wood Lighting Interior design

Very, very nice
 
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MattHooper

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Many "audiophile forums" (to be clear: I'm not talking about asr) live in a kind of symbiosis with the HiFi-industry and use a model borrowed from Scientology. The members are told that by investing more money - in this case by buying more expensive equipment - they reach to the next level of sophistication and consequently gain higher status amongst their peer group. In another words, audiophiles buy prestige.

Cynicism is rarely reality. (I find).

The idea that audiophiles (in the "other" audiophile forums) are driven to purchases by "prestige" is I think both facile and generally incorrect. For myself, for instance, I don't give a damn about what some other audiophile thinks about my equipment in terms of a purchase decision. No matter WHAT I buy, some audiophiles or other will think it's not that great or they'd have bought something else for the same money. It would be ridiculous to try to please some utterly heterogeneous "taste" from such a crowd. I know that I'm heavily driven by the usual audiophile urges to get better sound, however I think I may get it.

Having hung out and endlessly discussed gear with audiophiles both in person and in many of "those" forums, I recognize exactly this motivation in just about all of them. Most of us aren't rich, we are in this due to obsession to one degree or another, with music/sound/gear. Even the guys who can afford the expensive stuff tend to be the same...they can just afford more.

I don't mean to say that audiophiles therefore don't care at all what other audiophiles think. Many like to share lists or photos of their gear. This is often because they are quite happy with their set up, and it's fun to trade system info with fellow enthusiasts who'll appreciate it (where usually family and friends won't).
But I certainly don't see "seeking prestige among other audiophiles" as THE motivation for why people buy their particular audio gear.
 
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JiiPee

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Cynicism is rarely reality. (I find).

The idea that audiophiles (in the "other" audiophile forums) are driven to purchases by "prestige" is I think both facile and generally incorrect. For myself, for instance, I don't give a damn about what some other audiophile thinks about my equipment in terms of a purchase decision. No matter WHAT I buy, some audiophiles or other will think it's not that great or they'd have bought something else for the same money. It would be ridiculous to try to please some utterly heterogeneous "taste" from such a crowd. I know that I'm heavily driven by the usual audiophile urges to get better sound, however I think I may get it.

Having hung out and endlessly discussed gear with audiophiles both in person and in many of "those" forums, I recognize exactly this motivation in just about all of them. Most of us aren't rich, we are in this due to obsession to one degree or another, with music/sound/gear. Even the guys who can afford the expensive stuff tend to be the same...they can just afford more.

I don't mean to say that audiophiles therefore don't care at all what other audiophiles think. Many like to share lists or photos of their gear. This is often because they are quite happy with their set up, and it's fun to trade system info with fellow enthusiasts who'll appreciate it (where usually family and friends won't).
But I certainly don't see "seeking prestige among other audiophiles" as THE motivation for why people buy their particular audio gear.
I'm fully aware that my post was somewhat provocative, and I did not by any means try to claim that every single audiophile is just looking for prestige. However, in most groups of hobbyists - not just among HiFi enthusiasts - there is certain amount of "psychological group pressure" to get kind of stuff that is perceived as desirable by many of the thought leaders of the group. Some group members are more susceptible to such feelings and some are totally ignoring them. There is not necessarily any conspiracy behind it, or even conscious effort in the group to create such psychological pressure, but to some extent it usually does exist. Some equipment manufacturers/dealers are clearly using this to their commercial purposes, and some hobbyist groups are either knowingly, or unknowingly, acting as tools for them.

Every HiFi forum has their darlings. On some forum, a member can be sure to get much positive feedback when he reports that he has just upgraded his Audio Note amplifier and DAC from level 5 to level 6 (Audio Note has really mastered the idea of sophistication levels based purchasing ladders) On ASR one can expect the same by having Benchmark amps & DAC plus Revel speakers for example, or maybe an RME ADI-2 and Genelec 8361s. (not that there's anything wrong with them).
 

tuga

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Cynicism is rarely reality. (I find).

The idea that audiophiles (in the "other" audiophile forums) are driven to purchases by "prestige" is I think both facile and generally incorrect. For myself, for instance, I don't give a damn about what some other audiophile thinks about my equipment in terms of a purchase decision. No matter WHAT I buy, some audiophiles or other will think it's not that great or they'd have bought something else for the same money. It would be ridiculous to try to please some utterly heterogeneous "taste" from such a crowd. I know that I'm heavily driven by the usual audiophile urges to get better sound, however I think I may get it.

Having hung out and endlessly discussed gear with audiophiles both in person and in many of "those" forums, I recognize exactly this motivation in just about all of them. Most of us aren't rich, we are in this due to obsession to one degree or another, with music/sound/gear. Even the guys who can afford the expensive stuff tend to be the same...they can just afford more.

I don't mean to say that audiophiles therefore don't care at all what other audiophiles think. Many like to share lists or photos of their gear. This is often because they are quite happy with their set up, and it's fun to trade system info with fellow enthusiasts who'll appreciate it (where usually family and friends won't).
But I certainly don't see "seeking prestige among other audiophiles" as THE motivation for why people buy their particular audio gear.

What about pride of ownership? That doesn't require/pursue confirmation by others but by self and I have read about lots of evidence, direct or between the lines, that for many it is a driving force. To be fair, it's part of the consumer society we've been brought up into...

Edit: those show us your (cars, watches, speakers, etc.) is nothing but.

Edit 2: things are changing a bit now (for the younger poorer generations) with subscription replacing ownership in many consumer goods. Soon it'll happen with cars, computers, phones, everything. The downside is that it'll be more expensive and more rubbish will be produced thus more environmental damage.
 
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Aleksandar RS

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I'm fully aware that my post was somewhat provocative, and I did not by any means try to claim that every single audiophile is just looking for prestige. However, in most groups of hobbyists - not just among HiFi enthusiasts - there is certain amount of "psychological group pressure" to get kind of stuff that is perceived as desirable by many of the thought leaders of the group. Some group members are more susceptible to such feelings and some are totally ignoring them. There is not necessarily any conspiracy behind it, or even conscious effort in the group to create such psychological pressure, but to some extent it usually does exist. Some equipment manufacturers/dealers are clearly using this to their commercial purposes, and some hobbyist groups are either knowingly, or unknowingly, acting as tools for them.

Every HiFi forum has their darlings. On some forum, a member can be sure to get much positive feedback when he reports that he has just upgraded his Audio Note amplifier and DAC from level 5 to level 6 (Audio Note has really mastered the idea of sophistication levels based purchasing ladders) On ASR one can expect the same by having Benchmark amps & DAC plus Revel speakers for example, or maybe an RME ADI-2 and Genelec 8361s. (not that there's anything wrong with them).

I don't know based on what experience you formed your opinion about audiophiles. You have to accept that it's not all about impressing your friends or buying under group pressure. Living like this would result in constant dissatisfaction and frustration. Buying something to really enjoy might be the cure for that attitude.
 

MusicNBeer

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Absolutely I buy gear for visual and physical appeal as well as auditory. My three Bryston amps surely aren't the most economical for good sound, and I'm not even going to try to say they're better audio wise.

I do greatly enjoy their build quality, the company itself which goes out of its way to help if there's any problem. I have a 19 year old 4BSST that I use everyday. Never had a single problem with it. If I do, service will be trouble free.

I don't even care if someone wants to spend big bucks on poorly measuring gear if it makes them happy. The thing I cannot stand is the smug type that claims magical auditory powers and dismisses quality engineering and thinks engineering is an artform.
 

bodhi

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I don't even care if someone wants to spend big bucks on poorly measuring gear if it makes them happy. The thing I cannot stand is the smug type that claims magical auditory powers and dismisses quality engineering and thinks engineering is an artform.

Exactly this. Buying and owning nice things just for the sake of it has been a favorite first world hobby for ages. If the subjectivists would just leave it at that there would be no arguments. But no, there is always the "I can hear the differences between these DACs, easily. It's fine if you can't, it's kind of advanced thing and requires top notch system, you know".

You don't see wristwatch hobbyists claiming that a mechanical watches can measure time better than digital but just in a way that cannot be measured. They don't care at all about that. I pretty sure if somebody would start claiming such absurd things in the community he would be asked to shut up.
 

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Agree to the last 3 posts. Myself I buy equipment which is quality built, service possible in the future, and makes fun for me. I never cared what peoples meaning was to the products I bought. Of course, I try to optimize the price vs. performance since not being a millionaire. Therefore I don't read the tests in stereo magazines anymore which I did when selling stereo gear in the so called "stereo studios" during 1970ies.
 
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