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What makes this speaker so good?

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Goodman

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I just bought an old pairs of speakers (mint condition) Otto Sanyo SX401a. What is the technical explanation that this 40 year old cheap 2 way with inverted suspension 10 inch driver and a phonolic ring tweeter sounds better then some rather expensive audiophile speakers of the day? Could it be the light cardboard woofer and the fact that it is 94 db sensitivity Could it be the simple 2 inductors, 2 caps crossover?. Could it be that it just happens to mate well with my electronics? What is the mystery?
 

ahofer

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I just bought an old pairs of speakers (mint condition) Otto Sanyo SX401a. What is the technical explanation that this 40 year old cheap 2 way with inverted suspension 10 inch driver and a phonolic ring tweeter sounds better then some rather expensive audiophile speakers of the day? Could it be the light cardboard woofer and the fact that it is 94 db sensitivity Could it be the simple 2 inductors, 2 caps crossover?. Could it be that it just happens to mate well with my electronics? What is the mystery?
Take some measurements and find out!
 

3125b

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Maybe lackluster LFE and hence it doesn't excite room modes as much? Maybe the beaming of the 2" cone tweeter gives you a sloping in-room FR you like?
I refuse to belive there's any magic involved, but apart from that the only thing anyone can tell you is to measure (and share the measurements).
 

radix

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How are you comparing them? If they are playing louder, it might sound better.
 
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Goodman

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Take some measurements and find out!
I wish I was equipped
It could be your taste?
It could be your taste?

It could be your taste?
It could be, but take the new Andrew Jones speakers, he chose to implement a design to suit his taste (and market research), of course, with the appropriate measurements to back it up, but regardless, it wont suit everybody's taste either. Will every speaker that measure well sound identical? I don't think so. Planars and electrostatic speakers don't measure well, so why are they making them? are they ignorant? who would measure a phonelic ring tweeter, they are garbage no? domes are the only way to go,yes? Well maybe not.
 
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Goodman

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How are you comparing them? If they are playing louder, it might sound better.
I am not into analytical comparison, I listen to recorded music I am very familiar with in in a constant environment, I am not claiming what is best, I am simply stating my amazement that such a considered low tech and aged design can be in the same ball park as something more recent and considerably more expensive..Fashion maybe? aesthetics maybe? Marketing maybe?
 
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Goodman

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You're asking us to tell you what it is that makes you you. We can't do that.

Jim
Good point, but then how do we arrive at a measurable consensus? we are talking low tech here, electromagnetic transducers.
 

HarmonicTHD

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Good point, but then how do we arrive at a measurable consensus? we are talking low tech here, electromagnetic transducers.
We won’t. Because we can not measure remotely your individual personal preferences unless you are willing to subject yourself to a controlled blind listening study for which you don’t strike me to be the type for.

That’s why we usually don’t give a penny about individual preferences as one can’t not have a meaningful discussion about it. At least I try not to waste my time about what is better- Pepsi or Coke
 
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then how do we arrive at a measurable consensus?

We don't. You are confusing "better", which is a subjective quality, and "accurate", which is an objective quality. Subjective is emotional. Its goal is personal satisfaction. Objective is non-emotional. Its goal is data, not personal satisfaction.

Yes, I know that people get them mixed up all the time, but in actuality they are two entirely different worlds.

Jim
 
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ahofer

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Goodman

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We won’t. Because we can not measure remotely your individual personal preferences unless you are willing to subject yourself to a controlled blind listening study for which you don’t strike me to be the type for.

That’s why we usually don’t give a penny about individual preferences as one can’t not have a meaningful discussion about it. At least I try not to waste my time about what is better- Pepsi or Coke
I do understand, and don't want to be too argumentative over this.

Discussing individual preferences is indeed useless, however having a discussion comparing different technical approach to speaker design like/ Dipoles vs open baffles, vs high sensitivity vs 4th order crossover filtering can be of interest.

This was the question and gist of my original post. There was no statement of preference.

Also, you are saying that objectively if 3 sets of speakers reviewed measure the same or close, then it is a simply matter of taste or preference. Ok then, but that's admitting that speakers that measure the same (or closely) do sound different.
 
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Goodman

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Maybe lackluster LFE and hence it doesn't excite room modes as much? Maybe the beaming of the 2" cone tweeter gives you a sloping in-room FR you like?
I refuse to belive there's any magic involved, but apart from that the only thing anyone can tell you is to measure (and share the measurements).
That was my question, why does this absolete cheap cone tweeter sound good. You are correct it may be due to my slopping ceiling. But then what is the point in reviewing a speaker if you don't know the character of the room. There is absolutely no magic involved, that is actually my point. If this old thing is still listenable it shows the lack of progress and the increase in BS in electro-acoustic technology.
 

HarmonicTHD

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I do understand, and don't want to be too argumentative over this.

Discussing individual preferences is indeed useless, however having a discussion comparing different technical approach to speaker design like/ Dipoles vs open baffles, vs high sensitivity vs 4th order crossover filtering can be of interest.

This was the question and gist of my original post. There was no statement of preference.

Also, you are saying that objectively if 3 sets of speakers reviewed measure the same or close, then it is a simply matter of taste or preference. Ok then, but that's admitting that speakers that measure the same (or closely) do sound different.
Agree with the first three paragraphs.

No I am not saying what you wrote in your last paragraph because I personally don’t know about any studies which answer that exact question scientifically as there are many variables going into when a speaker is perceived the same. Plus you didn’t even define what to measure.

The Harman (Toole, Olive) studies show that the majority (ca 64%) of a large test group who have listened to various speakers over the years in a controlled test, prefer a flat anechoic frequency response and smooth directivity. The rest preferred some deviation, plus minus a few dBs , (look up the details) in terms of bass mainly. That is different than saying every speaker sounds the same.
I don’t remember if the study looked at distortion or dispersion angle for example, which also (can) affect sound perception.
The study was also motivated by Harman to find out what characteristics a speaker should have in order to be liked by most and therefore bought by a lot of people. It was never meant to dictate one’s individual preference by saying you have to like it or otherwise… not at all, as it shows the occurring variances within the test group.

However it is useful if one doesn’t know at all one’s preference to preselect potentially likable speakers and ideally take them home and make the final decision there in their room. And that final decision is only valid for that person in that room and not for anyone else.
 
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That was my question, why does this absolete cheap cone tweeter sound good. ..... . If this old thing is still listenable it shows the lack of progress and the increase in BS in electro-acoustic technology.

" .... this old thing ...." still listenable, eh? Age isn't a good basis for judgement. :)


Jim
 
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Goodman

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Agree with the first three paragraphs.

No I am not saying what you wrote in your last paragraph because I personally don’t know about any studies which answer that exact question scientifically as there are many variables going into when a speaker is perceived the same. Plus you didn’t even define what to measure.

The Harman (Toole, Olive) studies show that the majority (ca 64%) of a large test group who have listend to various speakers over the years in a controlled test, prefer a flat anechoic frequency response and smooth directivity. The rest preferred some deviation, plus minus a few dBs , (look up the details) in terms of bass mainly. That is different than saying every speaker sounds the same.
I don’t remember if the study looked at distortion or dispersion angle for example, which also (can) affect sound perception.
The study was also motivated by Harman to find out what characteristics a speaker should have to be liked by most and therefore bought by a lot of people. It was never meant to dictate one’s individual preference by saying you have to like it otherwise… not at all, as it shows the occurring variances within the test group.
Ok, Tool is a great reference, although not the greatest of objectivist.
He likes omni-directionals, and tone controls. You must admit 64% is not a great majority.
Distortion correlated to SPL and vertical dispersion are probably the most important characteristics to this audiophile, any way. Perhaps more important then the quest for absolute accuracy. You can't have it all unfortunately.
 
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Goodman

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Old thing still listenable, eh?


Jim
Altec Voice of the theater with Dynaco tubes was the first system I installed in a night club. It sounded great in a heavily damped room. Sure would not want it in my living room now. How about you?
 

tmtomh

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I do understand, and don't want to be too argumentative over this.

Discussing individual preferences is indeed useless, however having a discussion comparing different technical approach to speaker design like/ Dipoles vs open baffles, vs high sensitivity vs 4th order crossover filtering can be of interest.

This was the question and gist of my original post. There was no statement of preference.

Also, you are saying that objectively if 3 sets of speakers reviewed measure the same or close, then it is a simply matter of taste or preference. Ok then, but that's admitting that speakers that measure the same (or closely) do sound different.

The issue is that it doesn't really make sense to speculate about design differences between different speakers until you rule out the more obvious possibilities for the perceived difference, namely that 94dB efficiency is radically higher than most modern speakers (like the Andrew Jones-designed ones you mention), and notably higher efficiency even than many older speakers. If the music you play is not volume-matched - if you are listening to one speaker at higher volume - it can totally change your perception of the sound.

Is it more fun to speculate about design differences? Of course! Is it tedious to have to volume-match? Sure. But the facts are the facts.
 
D

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Altec Voice of the theater with Dynaco tubes was the first system I installed in a night club. It sounded great in a heavily damped room. Sure would not want it in my living room now. How about you?

In a heartbeat. :) (Yes, there's a teensy-weensy element of nostalgia there, I admit.)

Jim
 
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