Dan Clark Expanse Headphone Review

[Doodski]

Wondering if maybe I can buy some replacement pads and somehow cut a notch in them to fit my glasses...

My Sennheiser headphones have memory foam and that required maybe 3 months to really fit up to my head and prescription frames. Perhaps yours will too?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I bought a pair of Expanse headphones second hand. They sound very lean in the bass region. I can boost it with Roon PEQ to get it to sound better but at his price a reference should have better bass. The previous (original) owner also commented that he did not like the lack of bass and sold them as mint/new. Since sound preference is so subjective I thought I would give them a try. They do appear mint. I am starting to wonder if these are faulty. Does anyone know of any issues like this - Expanse with low bass output?

I compared the Expanse to the Stealth and, while the Stealth sounded "neutral", to me, the Expanse sounded very much like this measurement shows:

So, to me, the Expanse had too much bass overall.

But there seem to be a differences not only between measurements but also between subjective impressions.

What is your reference you are comparing the Expanse to?

Edit: Second important question: How is the seal? Seal is very important for the bass.

 

[xyvyx]

"My god man, what have you done!?"

To answer the question, the seal is ok w/o glasses. With these Oakley's, not so great... (fwiw, I can fit my pinky between the side-arms and my temples)
And now, the seal is better. I didn't cut anything in back/behind my ears yet. I'll see how this goes before any more hacking and I have a pair of replacement pads already on order, just in case this experiment doesn't work out. I wonder if I can find a leather person to clean that up w/ a few stiches stitches.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I wonder if I can find a leather person to clean that up w/ a few stiches.

 

[MrEWhite]

Currently looking at picking up a pair of these and a RME ADI-2/4 Pro to go with it. I assume that the ADI-2/4 Pro would be more than fine with these power wise when using the 4.4mm balanced jack, right?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Currently looking at picking up a pair of these and a RME ADI-2/4 Pro to go with it. I assume that the ADI-2/4 Pro would be more than fine with these power wise when using the 4.4mm balanced jack, right?

Yes.

 

[staticV3]

I assume that the ADI-2/4 Pro would be more than fine with these power wise when using the 4.4mm balanced jack, right?

115dB SPL peak in the mids and 120dB SPL peak in the bass, taking into account the ADI-2/4's Max Vrms vs Impedance and the Expanse's Impedance Response (the latter assumed compressionless).

 

[SoundsGood]

Currently looking at picking up a pair of these and a RME ADI-2/4 Pro to go with it. I assume that the ADI-2/4 Pro would be more than fine with these power wise when using the 4.4mm balanced jack, right?

Absolutely, Amir did his review with the RME ADI-2 Pro and report a level of -6 on the volume with plenty of headroom. You should be good to go with the Expanse and RME pairing as that is what Amir used. The Expanse is rated at 23 ohm impedance by Amir and the RME spec says 3.4 watts in balanced with 32 ohms so you are more than good.

 

[MrEWhite]

Was curious and emailed Dan Clark about their recommendations for pairings to use with this headphone. They sent me a document stating some recommendations for it. Note that even though it doesn't mention the Expanse, they said it applies:
"The headphones are relatively low impedance,

-Aeon is 12.5ohms
-Stealth is 22.

-A good rule of thumb is the best amps will double their power as impedance drops from 32 to 16 ohms.
-For Stealth we recommend at least 500mW at 32ohms
- for Aeon 500mW at 16 ohms. Also its quite important for the amplifier to have low output impedance, preferably
1ohm or lower.

Below are some links to amps we like but there are many others
For Mobile Use:

DAC/Amps

Chord Electronics MOJO
https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/mojo

Chord Electronics Hugo-2
https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugo-2

DAPS

ASstell&Kern SP2000T
https://www.astellnkern.com/product/product_detail.jsp?productNo=22

Basso DX300Max

https://ibasso.com/product/dx300max/

For Desktop

SPL PHONITOR

https://www.moon-audio.com/spl-phonitor-xe-headphone-amplifier-and-dac.html

RME

https://www.rme-usa.com/adi-2-dac.html

Chord Electronics ANNI

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/anni

Chord Electronics Hugo TT and Mscaler combination

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugott2
https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugo-mscaler"

 

[staticV3]

DAPS

ASstell&Kern SP2000T

Lol! The SP2000T outputs, via its Bal out, 150mW at 32Ω and 90mW at 16Ω:

Source

This Ugreen dongle has just as much power at 16Ω and it is 1.6% the cost of that A&K ($40 instead of $2500).


I wonder when that one'll be added to the list...

 

[MrEWhite]

Lol! The SP2000T outputs, via its Bal out, 150mW at 32Ω and 90mW at 16Ω:
View attachment 254558
Source

This Ugreen dongle has just as much power at 16Ω and it is 1.6% the cost of that A&K ($40 instead of $2500).
View attachment 254560

I wonder when that one'll be added to the list...

Don't shoot the messenger!
If it actually doesn't output that much, I wonder why they suggested it.

 

[staticV3]

If it actually doesn't output that much, I wonder why they suggested it.

Great question. Maybe @Dan Clark knows more about this?

 

[Robbo99999]

Was curious and emailed Dan Clark about their recommendations for pairings to use with this headphone. They sent me a document stating some recommendations for it. Note that even though it doesn't mention the Expanse, they said it applies:
"The headphones are relatively low impedance,

-Aeon is 12.5ohms
-Stealth is 22.

-A good rule of thumb is the best amps will double their power as impedance drops from 32 to 16 ohms.
-For Stealth we recommend at least 500mW at 32ohms
- for Aeon 500mW at 16 ohms. Also its quite important for the amplifier to have low output impedance, preferably
1ohm or lower.

Below are some links to amps we like but there are many others
For Mobile Use:

DAC/Amps

Chord Electronics MOJO
https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/mojo

Chord Electronics Hugo-2
https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugo-2

DAPS

ASstell&Kern SP2000T
https://www.astellnkern.com/product/product_detail.jsp?productNo=22

Basso DX300Max

https://ibasso.com/product/dx300max/

For Desktop

SPL PHONITOR

https://www.moon-audio.com/spl-phonitor-xe-headphone-amplifier-and-dac.html

RME

https://www.rme-usa.com/adi-2-dac.html

Chord Electronics ANNI

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/anni

Chord Electronics Hugo TT and Mscaler combination

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugott2
https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugo-mscaler"

There's a lot of expensive & unnecessary gear being listed in there. RME seems like the most sensible recommendation from those. Really though, instead, I think it's best you just go off Amir's DAC/amp reviews to check they deliver the power required at the ohm rating of your headphone that you're looking at - doing this will give you lots of good options for DACS & amps to choose from and far better value price points (whilst sometimes measuring better than any of the gear listed by Dan Clarke to you). You don't need pairing recommendations from the manufacturer of the headphone, even if they are Dan Clarke!

 

[MrEWhite]

Got my Expanse yesterday and my ADI-2/4 Pro SE today. So far, I think I'm liking these headphones. They have the best, most detailed and deep sounding bass I've heard out of any headphones yet. But, I'll have to listen a bit more to form a more in-depth opinion on them.

 

[Resolve]

Figured you guys might find this one interesting. We're doing measurements on the B&K 5128 now, so here's the Expanse FR relative to DF + 8dB slope. The target is still being tested out, but I thought this might be some useful data for folks. What's interesting is that perceptually, the results so far have been highly predictive for most headphones, but this one seems to be a notable exception for a few of us.

 

[GaryH]

Figured you guys might find this one interesting. We're doing measurements on the B&K 5128 now, so here's the Expanse FR relative to DF + 8dB slope. The target is still being tested out, but I thought this might be some useful data for folks. What's interesting is that perceptually, the results so far have been highly predictive for most headphones, but this one seems to be a notable exception for a few of us.

View attachment 256351

View attachment 256352

Interestingly, it measures reasonably flat throughout the mids, but I definitely hear this one differently (it sounds much more shouty to my ear).

It sounds 'shouty' because it peaks above the Harman target over a fairly broadband range in the lower treble around the frequencies our ears are most sensitive by up to ~3 dB, as shown by your GRAS measurements:

And not only does your 5128 target match the Expanse's excessive ear gain, but it also has less bass, and so would sound even more shouty than the latter due to less perceived masking of the offending treble by bass. Your target is off.

 

[Resolve]

It sounds 'shouty' because it peaks above the Harman target over a fairly broadband range in the lower treble around the frequencies our ears are most sensitive by up to ~3 dB, as shown by your GRAS measurements:

And not only does your 5128 target match the Expanse's excessive ear gain, but it also has less bass, and so would sound even more shouty than the latter due to less perceived masking of the offending treble by bass. Your target is off.

This is false, because EQing to match the target there doesn't improve it to a sufficient degree. Also false because other headphones EQ'd to match our target on the B&K don't sound shouty. Moreover the default shouldn't be to assume these headphones would be the same in that region because A) different pinna and B) different head, and C) not a plate. But, we've also been over much of this ground already.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying the Expanse IS shouty necessarily for every head, merely that this indicates some potential variation of headphone behavior depending on the head (or rig) that's wearing it.

 

[Robbo99999]

Figured you guys might find this one interesting. We're doing measurements on the B&K 5128 now, so here's the Expanse FR relative to DF + 8dB slope. The target is still being tested out, but I thought this might be some useful data for folks. What's interesting is that perceptually, the results so far have been highly predictive for most headphones, but this one seems to be a notable exception for a few of us.

View attachment 256351

View attachment 256352

How did you work out your target, @Resolve ? If you wanted, couldn't you transfer the GRAS Harman Target to the B&K - measure a bunch of different units of various headphones that you've equalised exactly to the Harman Target using your GRAS rig, then measure them all on the B&K, then take an average of those plots on your B&K and that would be your B&K Harman Target? I suppose if you did that then it would beg the question why get the B&K in the first place......I'm not sure what further improvements you can expect with B&K. (How can a person improve on the GRAS Harman Target given the backing research that was done, it's quite a task.)

 

[solderdude]

5128 ear + ear canal is closer to that of an (average) human being.
The acoustic impedance also differs so the results will differ.
This is why the 5128 would be a good choice. T
he more measurements are made public the more people can relate to the plots.

Note that the exact same headphone on different fixtures always will measure different and the exact same headphone will also be perceived differently by different individuals.
The goal of the 5128 is to get closer to the average human in measured response.

The thing is IF you are going to construct a target based on the 43AG you are basically calibrating to an older standard that isn't as anatomically correct and thus give incorrect measurements even though it was considered one of the 'correct' fixtures (but not the most 'correct'.

Resolve is on the correct path it seems but may not end up with a Harman target. While the Harman target may be preferred by many (the bass boost part) many find it a bit too much. The Harman target is impressive sounding and may well be correct for those listening at say 70dB average (all day listening level) but some like to enjoy music at a louder level for say 2 hours tops. For these folks the bass target proposed by Resolve may fit that better. Also the bass levels of 5128 are measured slightly lower so a Harman target on the 5128 will appear to have less 'bass boost' in the raw graphs anyway.

 

[staticV3]

If you wanted, couldn't you transfer the GRAS Harman Target to the B&K - measure a bunch of different units of various headphones that you've equalised exactly to the Harman Target using your GRAS rig, then measure them all on the B&K, then take an average of those plots on your B&K and that would be your B&K Harman Target?

That's exactly what Harman themselves did to "transfer" the Harman target to the new 5128 (see here).

It's also what they took considerable flak for from the audio science community as this method is quick and dirty, with less than optimal results.
You just can't really compensate for differences in acoustic impedance, as the response delta between GRAS and the 5128 will be different for each headphone.
Sure you can find a compensation curve that'll on average get you closer to compliance, but the individual error for each headphone will be quite considerable regardless.
The right thing for Harman to do would've been to remake the target from scratch.

As a result of Harman's shoddy work and their decision to keep their results under NDA, people like Resolve and oratory were encouraged to do better, and are now working on 5128 targets of their own.