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The Truth About Vinyl Records

Holmz

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What is there to be said?

Vinyl playback is full of various distortions no matter what the user does.

But many people like vinyl for their own various reasons.


The stuff is usually already distorted to hell and back in preduction so it sounds good on ear buds.

I am disinclined to pretend that CDs are somehow more like being there live for most cases of studio recording.

To complain about LP is to complain about the last thing in the chain,

It is chaining to designer sink taps in Flint Michigan to make the water taste better.
 

VQR

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What is there to be said?

Vinyl playback is full of various distortions no matter what the user does.

But many people like vinyl for their own various reasons.

Then it goes back and forth ad infinitum.
There ain't a damn thing new been said in this vinyl thread or the other 3, in years.
Cause there's just nothing more to say.
I participate simply because we get new members near daily that want to come here
and tell us how wonderful it is and try to teach us something new about vinyl.
Which is impossible LOL
It's a shame we don't have @analogplanet to tell this thread how vinyl is quieter than CD or how digital robs the soul of music.
;)
 

Sal1950

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I am disinclined to pretend that CDs are somehow more like being there live for most cases of studio recording.
They're simply a closer, more accurate representation of what the microphones heard.
The measurement numbers on which media are more capable don't lie.
It is chaining to designer sink taps in Flint Michigan to make the water taste better.
WTF are you talking about? Have you been drinking?

It's a shame we don't have @analogplanet to tell this thread how vinyl is quieter than CD or how digital robs the soul of music.
Yea, where is Mikey when you need him. LOL
 
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Holmz

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They're simply a closer, more accurate representation of what the microphones heard.
The measurement numbers on which media are more capable don't lie.

Did you miss my point about the the massive difference between the microphones out, and the end media, intentionally?


WTF are you talking about? Have you been drinking?

Rain water and grain alcohol.
No florida’ted water.
 

Sal1950

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Did you miss my point about the the massive difference between the microphones out, and the end media, intentionally?
Nope, but we don't have the ablity to change-chose those things.
In most cases we do with the playback media.
Your playing a word game with me that you won't win.
 

Bernard23

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This morning I started to fret about VTA and Azimuth. I also tried to ascertain the shape of the stylus fitted to my technics 270C cartridge (I think it's spherical); both of these activities are part of the "ritual", and have nothing to do with music directly, but satisfy the engineer's curiosity and desire to make this work better.
I've ordered a cheap perspex block with appropriate markings for VTA and azimuth, though there is no calibration cert with it, so my inner voice is warning me it's of little use. I also bought a 30x magnifying lens, which I hope will help set the thing up with my ageing eyesight not helping much....
 

Holmz

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Nope, but we don't have the ablity to change-chose those things.
In most cases we do with the playback media.
Your playing a word game with me that you won't win.

I guess the other “work game” is that the speaker distortion is usually the dominant thing with digital…
Maybe LPs compete with it… I am not sure.
 

Bernard23

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In practice, I'll bet most people like distortion even if they claim they don't. The number of posts in this supposedly objective forum claiming to prefer brighter, warmer sounding kit is evidence of that, its overpowering in many other online forums.
Read the Elac DBR6 review thread, they are measured as, and sound neutral with low distortion, but many buyers are underwhelmed by a boring sound lacking in energy and sizzle, and yet the objective evidence is right there before them!
 

Newman

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…evidence of that [ie liking so much distortion that it sounds warm], its overpowering in many other online forums….but many buyers [of Elac DBR 6] are underwhelmed by a boring sound lacking in energy and sizzle, and yet the objective evidence is right there before them!
Let’s see the measurements at the listener’s ear of their DBR 6 in their room.

Let’s see if the mids and highs deliver gradually falling SPL as per the target curve. Let’s see their rooms and the amount of, or lack of, heavy furnishings. Conclusion: is the room actually terrible, and instead of identifying that as what they don’t like the sound of, they blame the speakers as ‘bright sounding’ or, even worse, label themselves as ‘not liking neutral sound and wanting ‘warm’ distortion added’ instead of identifying a more-likely truth that their setup/room is poisoned in audio terms, and instead of fixing it they are window-shopping for speakers that will act as an antidote to their poisonous room sound. Hint: antidotes to poisons don’t make you feel great, they just make you feel less poisoned.

Let’s especially see the bass region of their room measurement. Are there big hollows and big lumps? Does the bass maintain volume or even shelve up a bit as the frequency drops below 140 Hz, as per the target for bass reproduction? Have they done anything about it, like EQ for smoother bass and add a small lift below 140 Hz? Have they done anything about any missing extension in the lowest octaves, like supplementation? Conclusion: are the (anechoically-balanced) speakers still delivering balanced sound from top to bottom in their room and their way of using it? Or have they taken a balanced-sounding speaker, put it into a situation that unbalances the sound, and confidently announced that they don’t like balanced sound? Spot the logic error these people are making.

And if you think this forum is objective, ie the people posting are objective, then why are there so many fights here aka calm differences of opinion? Of course you will find plenty of people here propagating every audio myth. Your logic is poor, if you say that people on ASR saying they want warm sound is evidence that warm sound is objectively preferred by many objective people.
 

Bernard23

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You're right, agree most of that, though the large range in room effects would make such objective measurements pretty useless as a means by which to communicate the performance of a product, so we test near field to eliminate those significant variables. And you're absolutely right, each transducer will sound different in every room with all other system variables kept equal, probably more so than say the range of variation that we might see measuring a population of HRTF; so applying a similar Harman approach to establish a standard living room probably won't cover enough of the normal distribution of users to make it of any value.
Just an observation (I have no data for this, so big caveat) that across multiple forums, less so ASR, that there is a greater proportion of disappointed buyers than you would normally expect for the 5 star rave products - usually the more populist forums are full of excited chatter about how great it is, just like the expert reviewer said, I don't see this as strongly for the Debut speakers.
I've read the description of boring and underwhelming, especially at low volumes, associated with a product that has been designed to be ultra low distortion and faithful as possible. How often in the early days of CD did we hear the complaint that is was cold or clinical? Possibly useful adjectives to describe low distortion and greater resolution perhaps? It's a vague association I know, but it's a pattern.
Like I said, I have no data to back this up by the way, just an observation, so I could be wrong, maybe it is just that room variation - which is more likely for users frequenting this forum than others. It's probably reasonable to presume that users of ASR are generally of a much more discerning fact based perspective; this is not so the case in the more hysterical groups, many of whom are almost religious in their distaste for measurement and ASR.
Perhaps I didn't explain the logic so clearly, but then it was a throwaway comment: not everyone on ASR is objective, as not everyone on some of the other general consumer forums are limited to subjective opinion, so no I don't argue your last point. That's not what I meant at all. Arguably, ASR members are more likely to realise the impact of the room response, and try to measure it, and use that to aid a purchasing decision, and / or use some form of DSP room correction since most if use digital sources. That, or move house, which sometimes fixes the issue!
 

Sal1950

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It is chaining to designer sink taps in Flint Michigan to make the water taste better.
WTF are you talking about? Have you been drinking?
Apologies for responding in a course manner, I had to read that sentence 6 more times today
to try and get the meaning and I'm still not 100% sure. :)
In this passion for reproduced music of ours, we first get stuck using whatever the artist-label decides to
hand us in the way of product. Our only real control is how we handle that product after we get it.
And then in the end, for even the strictest of objectivists here, there isn't a universally agreed on, correct
speaker for them, preferences still mostly rule the roost for everyone.
Many do consider me a hardcore objectivist since, #1 I do believe that measurements can tell the whole story,
that there isn't anything audible that can't be measured or anything left secret in audible performance. In fact todays
test gear is so good that it can measure differences in sound quality way beyond that which humans can hear.
OTOH, I'm not locked into listening to my system in it's most pure form, only that it be capable of delivering the source
at as close to accurate SOTA as I can afford. But after that I may dial in a preferred room curve, upmix 2ch sources to a multch
delivery, whatever small things that make the end result most pleasing to ME.

Company, Stand At EASE!
 

Holmz

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Apologies for responding in a course manner, I had to read that sentence 6 more times today

Thanks for the gentlemanly apology, but all is well.


to try and get the meaning and I'm still not 100% sure. :)

I was meaning we take a recording that has been altered in post production and the DR is smashed.
And then we compain about the TT not being the same as the CD.

In this case the CD player is the new taps, the TT the old taps, and the media on the CD represents the water.
(Hence it is like changing the taps in Flint Michigan to make the water taste better.)

The CD is theoretically more resolving, but a well set up TT is as good as many speakers in terms of distortion, and as not that far behind some DACS and CDs.
Assuming that 100dB(A) and -50 to 60 dB ends up near the noise floor or many rooms… then it is stream h to assume that it is a huge problem.


When I can hear the master tape hiss after the song has ended, and the fades out, and then comes bask before the next track starts, then I know that the noise of the TT is below the noise of master tape hiss.

Whether the music onthe CD or LP is any good or not is another thing.
And whether is is “as the artist intended” is doubtful, as it is spiced up and ”improved” in the production… and people prefer that.
 

Sal1950

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And whether is is “as the artist intended” is doubtful, as it is spiced up and ”improved” in the production… and people prefer that.
I would think-hope that the sound of the final master mix was determined by joint desision.
Whether or not true is irrelevant since we get what we get, it is what it is.

After that some more changes come into play.
A SOTA master tape copy intended for vinyl has to be "tamed & adjusted" in many ways to be cut-able by the lathe and playable
by a needle.
A SOTA master tape copy intended for digital distribution may be squashed dynamically by some wanker for whatever reasons.
It's hard to ever really know what the thinking was for any media we listen to.
So we fall back to the fact "it is what it is".

Personally I would much rather listen to a digital master that may have had it's DR reduced a few db, than a LP with a bit more DR
but includes all the other of an LP's audible failings. On a 21st Century media, they just shouldn't still be around.
YMMV
 

Newman

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a well set up TT is as good as many speakers in terms of distortion, and as not that far behind some DACS and CDs.
Not even close. A typical-good TT with tonearm and cart delivers several percent of distortion, a typical-good speaker several tenths of a percent, and a typical-good DAC several ten-thousandths of a percent.
 

Bernard23

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In fact todays
test gear is so good that it can measure differences in sound quality way beyond that which humans can hear.
Is that true, or at least so definitely so? Whilst the human ear is poor as a scientific instrument (its not very repeatable and operator uncertainty is quite large) it's LoD in some parameters is extremely high. Just thinking about the 20-20k range then it is both sensitive in terms of sones and in time delay of around 50ms. Detection is not the same as cognition, not sure if there even an instrument capable of directly measuring that anyway.
Even if you're right, it's important to distinguish between consistency and absolute LODs. One is poor, the other pretty well evolved.
It's a good detector, but combined with the brain it's not a great instrument.
 
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Sal1950

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Is that true, or at least so definitely so?
I believe it is.
Outside of silly totally unverified audiophool claims, no one has presented verified repeatable evidence to the contrary.
The balls in the court of anyone believing they can.
 
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I believe it is.
Outside of silly totally unverified audiophool claims, no one has presented verified repeatable evidence to the contrary.
The balls in the court of anyone believing they can.
Perhaps we should acknowledge that if such measurements are convincing listeners to turn to CD over vinyl on a good turntable it must surely prove those measurements are falling so far short of the psychology of perception of sounds and music appreciation as to be irrelevant, worse misleading. I'd say game, set and match.
 

egellings

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There's no question that the CD format technically outperforms the vinyl one. Still, vinyl has no right to sound that good.
 
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