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Are there any decent Sundara alternatives for my taste?

Jose Hidalgo

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Hi everybody, and Happy New Year! :)

As some of you know, I have a small collection of headphones (see my sig). The main ones are: HD 600, Nighthawk (Wood & Carbon), 99 Classics, Sundara (with 2020 revised earpads). I have never managed to fall in love with the Sundara, so I'm thinking about letting it go. Here's why:
  • I find it just a bit too heavy at 372g. Granted my Nighthawks are 346g, but they have an amazing suspension system that makes them seem much lighter. The Sundara doesn't have that.
  • I don't find it as comfortable as the others. To be honest it depends on my mood, but subjective impressions count too.
  • I'm not a huge fan of its "industrial look" (raw metal, etc). It's not ugly, it's actually well-built, but I prefer the look of my other cans.
The sound? Oh, the overall sound is really nice, and it's true they are versatile :) But again, they just don't make me fall in love:
  • For critical listening, my EQed HD 600 is just as nice. The EQed Sundara may be a touch better in the bass range, but other than that, I'm not sure.
  • For relaxed listening, my EQed Nighthawks are great too.
  • For travel, there's always the closed 99 Classics, plus a pair of Bose QC15 that I use from time to time.
So you see, I have trouble finding reasons to keep my Sundara. I use it quite scarcely, so I guess that's a sign. Everything it does well, I can find another one of my headphones that does it just as well (when EQed), with probably a slightly better subjective impression for my ears.

But before I let go of my Sundara, I need to find a decent alternative. Unfortunately I don't know if such alternative even exists! o_O

So here's what I'm looking for:
  • I don't care about the stock sound, because I always EQ my headphones to whatever target curve I desire, using my own app (see my sig). So I would rather say that I care instead about the "potential when EQed". That's the main thing for me. The best example would be my Nighthawks: arguably bad-sounding without EQ, and great sounding once EQed correctly.
  • I care about comfort, weight, and looks (headphones are displayed in my living room, my wife and our friends see them all the time, so looks matter too in my case).
  • I have a E30/L30 stack which is enough for most headphones, so the chosen headphone needs to be able to be driven by that.
  • The Sundara is currently my only planar, so I'd like to find a planar replacement. Unfortunately planars tend to be heavy, so... fingers crossed for finding a lighter/more comfortable one. If not, I'm open to everything else.
  • Budget should be similar to the Sundara (<=350 €). I may consider second-hand and exotic stuff, no worries (maybe a more expensive headphone with a second-hand price within my budget? :p). eBay auctions are a good option if I know what to look for (I got my Nighthawk Wood that way, practically new, for about 200 € :cool:).
  • Last but not least, I live in Europe, so price needs to be acceptable on this side of the ocean.
Like I said, I don't know if such headphone exists... but I'm willing to find it if it does. :D

Let me know if I have forgotten something. Thanks! :)
 

sejarzo

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I understand your situation quite well. I likewise always EQ, but rarely use my HE400i, even though I do prefer the clarity in the bass response, because my HD6XX is so much more comfortable, and getting those big round HiFiman earpads to seal on my particular head shape has always been an issue (same for Beyer DT880, AKG 701, etc. etc.) Thus I will be watching this thread to see what others suggest. My closed cans are the AKG K371 and to be honest, I listen to them as much as the HD6XX now.
 

Dunring

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I've had the whole line of Hifiman up to the Arya and I use an He5xx for a daily driver. More comfortable and lighter, and well rounded for almost any music if you eq it with just a -4db preamp reduction. I have a Topping L30/E30 to test using them and it's at 12 oclock in high gain at loud volume (they max out the volume wheel in mid gain with the -4db reduction. I couldn't use the Sundara every day, but the HE5xx is the one really wear all the time while testing new audio gear that comes in.
 

enricoclaudio

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DCA AEON 2 Noires are above your budget but maybe in the used market you can find some close to your budget.
 
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Jose Hidalgo

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Thanks! A couple of thoughts:
  • I'm not sure I'll get another Hifiman. The HE5XX isn't quite as discerning as the Sundara (resolution), and I'm not sure that it can be improved by EQ. I wouldn't be happy to trade my Sundara for an arguably worse headphone, only because of better comfort. Not to mention that the 5XX isn't particularly pretty for my taste either.

  • I'd love to try DCA someday. The AEONs fit my bill weight-wise (326-328g). Aesthetically they're all gorgeous. Unfortunately DCA cans are just too expensive in Europe, due to the fact that they come all the way from America, not to mention that the Dollar is at an (almost) all-time high. Same could be said of Audeze. Even second-hand, the cheapest Dan Clark cans in Europe are about 500 € (with a couple of exceptions in the 410-450 € range) : https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=aeon . 500 €/$ is about the price of a brand new AEON RT bought in America. :facepalm:
 

Robbo99999

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Hi everybody, and Happy New Year! :)

As some of you know, I have a small collection of headphones (see my sig). The main ones are: HD 600, Nighthawk (Wood & Carbon), 99 Classics, Sundara (with 2020 revised earpads). I have never managed to fall in love with the Sundara, so I'm thinking about letting it go. Here's why:
  • I find it just a bit too heavy at 372g. Granted my Nighthawks are 346g, but they have an amazing suspension system that makes them seem much lighter. The Sundara doesn't have that.
  • I don't find it as comfortable as the others. To be honest it depends on my mood, but subjective impressions count too.
  • I'm not a huge fan of its "industrial look" (raw metal, etc). It's not ugly, it's actually well-built, but I prefer the look of my other cans.
The sound? Oh, the overall sound is really nice, and it's true they are versatile :) But again, they just don't make me fall in love:
  • For critical listening, my EQed HD 600 is just as nice. The EQed Sundara may be a touch better in the bass range, but other than that, I'm not sure.
  • For relaxed listening, my EQed Nighthawks are great too.
  • For travel, there's always the closed 99 Classics, plus a pair of Bose QC15 that I use from time to time.
So you see, I have trouble finding reasons to keep my Sundara. I use it quite scarcely, so I guess that's a sign. Everything it does well, I can find another one of my headphones that does it just as well (when EQed), with probably a slightly better subjective impression for my ears.

But before I let go of my Sundara, I need to find a decent alternative. Unfortunately I don't know if such alternative even exists! o_O

So here's what I'm looking for:
  • I don't care about the stock sound, because I always EQ my headphones to whatever target curve I desire, using my own app (see my sig). So I would rather say that I care instead about the "potential when EQed". That's the main thing for me. The best example would be my Nighthawks: arguably bad-sounding without EQ, and great sounding once EQed correctly.
  • I care about comfort, weight, and looks (headphones are displayed in my living room, my wife and our friends see them all the time, so looks matter too in my case).
  • I have a E30/L30 stack which is enough for most headphones, so the chosen headphone needs to be able to be driven by that.
  • The Sundara is currently my only planar, so I'd like to find a planar replacement. Unfortunately planars tend to be heavy, so... fingers crossed for finding a lighter/more comfortable one. If not, I'm open to everything else.
  • Budget should be similar to the Sundara (<=350 €). I may consider second-hand and exotic stuff, no worries (maybe a more expensive headphone with a second-hand price within my budget? :p). eBay auctions are a good option if I know what to look for (I got my Nighthawk Wood that way, practically new, for about 200 € :cool:).
  • Last but not least, I live in Europe, so price needs to be acceptable on this side of the ocean.
Like I said, I don't know if such headphone exists... but I'm willing to find it if it does. :D

Let me know if I have forgotten something. Thanks! :)
There's the DCA Open X from Drop. It's above your budget by around a factor of two though. It's the one headphone I'm loosely considering to buy.....but very loosely, maybe when it's on a sale. I'd choose it because it's a DCA (you'd think low unit to unit variation), because it's supposed to be an example of a really good planar (I like my planar HE4XX but it's not my favourite headphone), and it's an open back which should reduce variation between people and also should reduce variation with different reseats on your head, and it's low distortion, and it has a pretty close frequency response to Harman or is certainly easily EQ'able to Harman judging from the measured frequency response.

I pretty much always recommend the Senn HD560s to people. With EQ you could think of it as an HD600 but with better soundstage & imaging and more well defined bass vs an EQ'd HD600. It's lower in distortion in the bass than HD600. I don't know if you might have tried the HD560s before, got a sneaky suspicion you've tried it already. It's also a low unit to unit variation headphone with good channel matching in most cases it seems - I've measured 3 of them and they're exceedingly close to each other.....and likewise solderdude has measured 3 of them and they're also very close to each other.......some people have reported channel imbalance though (mostly without measurements), but most measurements are showing a reliable headphone.
 
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Jose Hidalgo

Jose Hidalgo

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Yes, I'd definitely love to get my hands on one of those DCA, be it an Open X or an AEON. It's just that, like I said, American stuff is just so expensive right now in Europe, because of the Dollar's all-time high plus import taxes. I've checked second-hand, and there's a pair of Open X for 470 €. That was the price of a brand new pair merely one year ago !

So yes, definitely someday : if there ever is a sale and I'm able to find a friend travelling to the US and back (I have some friends who do that in a regular basis), then I might pull the plug on these.

As for the Senns, I'm really happy with my HD 600. Like you Robbo I have a custom EQ that improves them to my liking beyond Oratory's tuning, especially in the bass range (it's not perfect, it doesn't perform as well as my Nighthawks of course, but it's really satisfying). So the only other Senn I would consider would be the 800S, which is of course too expensive. Maybe someday too. :)
 

Robbo99999

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Yes, I'd definitely love to get my hands on one of those DCA, be it an Open X or an AEON. It's just that, like I said, American stuff is just so expensive right now in Europe, because of the Dollar's all-time high plus import taxes. I've checked second-hand, and there's a pair of Open X for 470 €. That was the price of a brand new pair merely one year ago !

So yes, definitely someday : if there ever is a sale and I'm able to find a friend travelling to the US and back (I have some friends who do that in a regular basis), then I might pull the plug on these.

As for the Senns, I'm really happy with my HD 600. Like you Robbo I have a custom EQ that improves them to my liking beyond Oratory's tuning, especially in the bass range (it's not perfect, it doesn't perform as well as my Nighthawks of course, but it's really satisfying). So the only other Senn I would consider would be the 800S, which is of course too expensive. Maybe someday too. :)
Yes, we'll keep an eye on the Open X! I can understand the idea of you wanting something completely different to what you have with the HD600, and you probably feel the HD560s is not far enough away from it being a dynamic driver headphone and not having the same reputation as the HD800s for instance, and the HD800s does have those crazy big earcups, so it can certainly give the impression of being something totally different. The HD560s is noticeably different to the HD600, after EQ I think it has some of the elements that make the HD600 good (smoothness, detail, mids), but the HD560s adds the bass capability element and also the soundstage & imaging element........but I appreciate it's not as widely different on the surface at least as a DCA Planar or the uniquely designed HD800s. We'll keep an eye on the Open X!
 
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Jose Hidalgo

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Exactly :) All that, plus the fact that I'm not a huge fan of the aesthetics of the 560s. I understant the intent, but it looks a bit like a toy to me, and like I said that matters too in my case. Surely DCA cans look (and probably sound) better, so we'll keep an eye on them, and who knows? ;)
 

Robbo99999

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Exactly :) All that, plus the fact that I'm not a huge fan of the aesthetics of the 560s. I understant the intent, but it looks a bit like a toy to me, and like I said that matters too in my case. Surely DCA cans look (and probably sound) better, so we'll keep an eye on them, and who knows? ;)
I agree that the HD560s in terms of aesthetics doesn't look particularly attractive or high end. In terms of sonics, that's half the reason why I'd consider trying the DCA Open X - I'm just curious to see if it can get any better than this, I'm not overly convinced, but curiosity is a strong motivator. It would be really cool for example to have the DCA Stealth for a week (pie in the sky) just to compare EQ'd headphones vs the "pinnacle headphone"........I'm not totally sold that there would be a significant difference to a good EQ'd headphone. I wonder if DCA will trickle down the technology they learned from the Stealth back down into future more affordable headphones.....I wonder how long a wait that would be (if it does happen).....that might be the time I might try a DCA if I don't ever get around to getting the DCA Open X.
 

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I've settled for the Sundara with Dekoni Sheepskin pads personally. These pads increase bass and treble extension and the sound is overall excellent with perhaps slightly brittle upper treble. I had more expensive headphones like the HD800 and LCD-2 and I prefer my modded Sundara hands down. It has much better clarity overall.
 

RoA

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I understand (some of) your misgivings about the Sundara. Its not a headphone to 'fall in love with'. It lacks the engagement and macro dynamics as well as rhythmic prowess compared to others, including the 6 series but they are flawed in other ways. I can't say they feel uncomfortable but we are all different and build is ok. I quite like the industrial look.

However, for the money, it is one of the most technically accomplished HP's and for that I appreciate it. It still benefits from a bit of EQ as most phones do.

I can warmly recommend Beyerdynamics new 700 ProX Closed back. It is more engaging than the 900 ProX Open back whilst still threading a somewhat neutral balance. Great sound stage for a closed back too, rivalling the Sundara imho. - Better dynamics, easy to drive. It does require EQ if you want to increase bass (lowering of pre amp level in Roon or similar before raising bass). Once done it is superb but ymmv. Technically better than Mezze's 99 Classic which I own too but a different presentation with more bass control, clarity.
 
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Jose Hidalgo

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I've settled for the Sundara with Dekoni Sheepskin pads personally. These pads increase bass and treble extension and the sound is overall excellent with perhaps slightly brittle upper treble. I had more expensive headphones like the HD800 and LCD-2 and I prefer my modded Sundara hands down. It has much better clarity overall.
Like I said, not for me, but to each his taste. :)
PS : if you prefer your Sundara, sell me a HD800 or a LCD-2 for the price of a Sundara and I'll consider it. :p

I can warmly recommend Beyerdynamics new 700 ProX Closed back.
If I decided to try Beyer someday, I could as well find a deal on the well-known DT1990 Pro. And tame it with EQ of course. :)
 

RoA

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Like I said, not for me, but to each his taste. :)
PS : if you prefer your Sundara, sell me a HD800 or a LCD-2 for the price of a Sundara and I'll consider it. :p


If I decided to try Beyer someday, I could as well find a deal on the well-known DT1990 Pro. And tame it with EQ of course. :)
Different HP, different drivers, different amplification demands. Nearly twice the price.
 

Nango

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I am playing my Sundara on a TEAC P90 which is said to deliver 4,7V and I really like them better then on my Schiit Heresy
 

Dealux

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Like I said, not for me, but to each his taste. :)
PS : if you prefer your Sundara, sell me a HD800 or a LCD-2 for the price of a Sundara and I'll consider it. :p
The LCD-2 has way better bass, especially if you EQ. Those Audezes seal very well and you can feel the physical sensation of air pressure when you place them on your ears which helps achieve a fixed air volume for greater bass impact but those old Audeze headphones have strange sounding treble even after EQ. Kinda grainy and muffled.

I would say the Sundara with Dekoni pads (which add a bit more clarity and bass impact) are on par detail wise with the HD800 but have smaller staging but more focused/clear imaging. The HD800 sounds plasticky as hell even with EQ.
 

jae

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There are a few notable decent ones in your range from A-T, AKG, hifiman, but I would say many are "sidegrades", or similar at best and have glaring problems at worse, and definitely not worth it if you already have a 600-series IMO, which is one of the best headphones with EQ. Hifiman is notorious have having bad qc and other problems like inverted polarity etc.

I would say the best logical upgrade to a 600-series is something from DCA which starts at $420-500 new, maybe you can find it a bit less used that fits in your budget. The benefit from DCA is that it is quite comfortable and light compared to the other competition and you get the low distortion and better EQ-ability/potentially better of planars, especially if you're sticking with open designs. DCA's open headphones do not sound that great out of the box and the closed ones tend to have a better response out of the box, but if you are using EQ then you can have your cake and eat it to with both DCA open and closed headphones. Bear in mind with the closed headphones you have the added issues that come with them such as leakage tolerance. The upper DCA models at $800 also fold for easier transport and tend to sound bit better out of the box but I digress here and we're going past your budget at this point. Beyond stuff like the 560s, 600-series, and $500-800 DCAs the only headphones I feel are even worth getting are Audeze MM-500/LCD-5 or DCA Stealth/Expanse, and these are many thousands of dollars above your budget. Options are very limited for clearly "better" open headphones at that price since you already have an EQ'd HD600.
 
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Jose Hidalgo

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Thanks jae for a rational reply :) I agree with you : my EQed HD600 are possibly my favorites and the closest thing I have to the supposed "truth / naturalness". I also love my Nighthawks : definitely not neutral-sounding (even when EQed, because of internal resonances I guess), but surprisingly good (even better than the HD600 on some types of music where "truth" is not an absolute requirement), with decent soundstage, and a bass and imaging to die for. So the two of them are quite complementary.

Like already said, I'll definitely keep an eye on DCA stuff (hoping that the Euro rises again in the near future, lol). I'll try to listen to them in my city, but here in France it's not going to be easy. I'll post in french audio forums and I will try to set up a listening session at my place (I have several headphone amps and my own software for dual listening sessions). Who knows? Maybe I'll get lucky. :)
 
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