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Where are the Chinese phono cartridges? I'm tired of snake oil and ridiculous pricing

killdozzer

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I'm so tired of snake oil and excessive prices for MM/MI/MC cartridges.
I'm with you. What would you consider a fair price?

I went for a slightly more expensive one, but it'll serve me for a long time as there won't be much wear on it! :D

I have the AT-VM540ML. Bought it new with some discount for cca 240$ (the price went down in the meantime).
 

killdozzer

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The 540 has a posher body internal and supposedly posher wiring too. It *should* be better than the 95ML especially in terms of separation. The German Lowbeats site has full measurements (too lazy to look it up but easily Googled and read if you have a translator in your browser).
I'm very happy with my 540.
 
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Krillin

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Yes, the AT VM540ML and VM740ML are very good and backed by measurements. It's also very good that the stylus can be swapped out and LP Gear has additional stylus options as well.

Where does moving iron fit into all of this with Permalloy, Supermalloy, Finemet (nanocrystalline), etc.? From my reading Moving Iron has less failure mechanisms than MC, much lower manufacturing cost, low rotational inertia, replaceable stylus (sometimes), and if designed right incredible channel separation. I've also read that in order to get inductance down they can be built to be low output just like MC.

Grado has MI carts but their low output versions have non-replaceable stylus and elliptical. Their prestige series have replaceable stylus but are higher output and only bonded elliptical. I would consider them if they had a nude stylus with something better than elliptical. I wonder if their low output versions really need to be non-replaceable.

Soundsmith has exceptional MI cartridges but I refuse to pay their astronomical prices.

I'm with you. What would you consider a fair price?
Moving Coil - I would say all the prices are too high and low $300 is the absolute max I'm willing to pay without some sort of trade in program. The LP Gear BIN 323 HOMC @ $320 is the best current value in my opinion however I wonder with a stylus at 5 x 20 µm is it really line contact or elliptical?

Moving Magnet - Personally I think Audio Techinca has priced theirs appropriately and I can't really imagine house brand or Chinese company competing too well with their AT95 and VM540/740. Especially with all the stylus options.

Moving Iron - I believe pricing closer to Audio Technica's VM540ML/VM740ML ($250-320) is fair with a replaceable stylus. The Grado Prestige line comes the closest but once again I'm not a fan of their stylus options. Also, I believe they could release the MI low output versions in a Prestige casing with a replaceable stylus if they really wanted to. But with a small minority willing to pay high prices in a wooden case....

Of course I wished for a Chinese company to compete at vastly redued prices without loss of quality. But it appears that may be a pipe dream.
 
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raindance

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I'd love it if Grado released a line contact stylus! They finally fixed the damping issues a few years ago (although there are now those who "tweak" the styli by removing the damping). I don't know how to do a face palm from my phone, sorry.
 

mike70

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it's complicated .... a little niche market with manual work products. Low prices are very difficult for manufacturers.
Only the higher sellers (as AT) can produce better price / performance ratio products based on mass market.

Someone also said it before ... these aren't boxed chips or opamps... but ... ok, everyone's free to think the way they want.
 
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Cwopete5

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I just so happened to have an unused AT-360091 laying around and decided to give it a roll. Doesn't sound bad at all. Definitely a bargain cartridge.
 

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USER

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I just so happened to have an unused AT-3600 laying around and decided to give it a roll. Doesn't sound bad at all. Definitely a bargain cartridge.
AT3600L - Denon DP-30L II 1.png


~±1dB. It certainly is better than a lot of the crap being put out today at any price if you are OK with the 3g tracking force.

Edit: that should say 215pF.
 

USER

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Sorry, meant to say AT-91. Either way, plays very nicely at 2g VTF.
Here's the AT71E. All of these have the same body as your AT91. I'd expect them to all have a similar frequency response. Here distortion is higher. Hopefully the 91 is closer to the former. Again, 215pF. They seem to work best at around 200pF total instead of 100pF (though who has that really).

AT71E - Denon DP-30L II 1.png
 

Angsty

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Then on top of that a replacement MM stylus costs $576 for the Ortofon 2M black replacement stylus. There is no way in hell a replacement stylus costs as much as a brand spanking new Playstation 5.
Get an Ortofon 2M Red for $100 or a Blue for $240. I really don’t understand the complaint when much lower cost options from the same line are available. Highly spec’ed diamond styli do cost more to produce than conicals and tipped ellipticals. If you want cheaper, buy cheaper.

An even cheaper alternative is to buy vintage carts and new styli. A vintage Shure M92E costs $50 on eBay and the replacement styli cost about $20 on Amazon. I have one; it sounds ok. I prefer my Hana SL - always.
 

mike70

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A high polished diamond by hand is not cheap
... and a complex design with almost microscopic cuts even less cheap, like shibata or microcline, designed in the 80s (not in 50s like elliptical)

How can you compare that with chips soldered by machines in SMD boards and selled as cookies?

Stylus market is a tiny niche.

After that you have different prices between brands ... Hana and AT are always cheaper than Ortofon.

But, as I said ... apples to apples.
 

killdozzer

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Get an Ortofon 2M Red for $100 or a Blue for $240. I really don’t understand the complaint when much lower cost options from the same line are available. Highly spec’ed diamond styli do cost more to produce than conicals and tipped ellipticals. If you want cheaper, buy cheaper.

An even cheaper alternative is to buy vintage carts and new styli. A vintage Shure M92E costs $50 on eBay and the replacement styli cost about $20 on Amazon. I have one; it sounds ok. I prefer my Hana SL - always.
Don't be like that! :) You know we all like to go cheaper if possible, so why not here? Especially with things that need replacement like stylii do. And it would make tinkering more available! With prices going up, my stylus now costs as much as as I payed for the entire cart.

@USER do you perhaps have measurements for AT-VM540ML? I'm very curious to see them. Or you maybe know of such site where I could find measurements?
 

killdozzer

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You all probably know about this since most of you will check the HiFiShark from time to time, where this is advertised. But if some of you don't know, here it is:

 

USER

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Don't be like that! :) You know we all like to go cheaper if possible, so why not here? Especially with things that need replacement like stylii do. And it would make tinkering more available! With prices going up, my stylus now costs as much as as I payed for the entire cart.

@USER do you perhaps have measurements for AT-VM540ML? I'm very curious to see them. Or you maybe know of such site where I could find measurements?

Various settings.

VM95ML is the way to go if you can adjust your settings. Similar to above but smaller hump. Just make sure channels matching is reasonably close. Personally I don't see value in more expensive AT carts.

 
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Angsty

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Don't be like that! :) You know we all like to go cheaper if possible, so why not here?
I liked your response, @killdozzer.

I’m just thinking that some people don’t understand or respect the supply chain associated with phono cartridges. The vast majority of them are hand assembled, artisan style. Yes, some are outrageously priced for what they are (looking at you, Koetsu), but Ortofon 2M is not really in that camp.

There are very few suppliers of quality diamond styli and cantilevers compared to the Eighties heydays; volume sold is much smaller, but growing. Big players like Shure have shuttered leaving AT and Ortofon as the dwarf giants of this specialty industry. Much of the cheap, high volume stuff going on Crosby players would have only been fit for kids toys 40 years ago.

Of course, everyone wants cheaper but it’s still hard to get French Champagne quality at Barefoot Bubbly prices.
 
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AaronJ

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There is no reason to pay more for a phono cartridge than for a PS5. Paying more is equivalent to lighting $100 bills on fire.
 

mike70

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There is no reason to pay more for a phono cartridge than for a PS5. Paying more is equivalent to lighting $100 bills on fire.

Why? I would really like to hear the arguments, maybe I learn something new.
 

dr0ss

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Why? I would really like to hear the arguments, maybe I learn something new.
Assuming you are sincere (since this is a friendly forum), I don't think he is saying that there is an obvious way to produce quality cartridges with a process that would cost less than a PS5. I think he is saying that having $500 consumables makes listening to vinyl an extravagance, and he is using the PS5 -- which is not a consumable, and should last for many many plays/years -- as an arbitrary standard of comparison. If it costs a company $1000 to make a razor blade, then I understand not charging less to sell that blade, but it is perfectly reasonable for someone who likes to shave to find the price unacceptable and hope for someone to come out with something far cheaper.

For me one of the attractions of vinyl is that it is a venerable old technology that can be kept operating as new practically forever. Having components that are either not replaceable at all (like some Beo cartridges), or are effectively nonreplaceable because of price, runs counter to that attraction.

Back in 1989 I bought a Sumiko Blue Point #2 for around $75 (which would be $180 in today's money); I thought it was an extravagance at the time. For most of its life it has been sitting in storage on a Denon turntable awaiting repair. Last week I retrieved the cartridge (the turntable is still borked) to put on our current active table; the sound is marvelous to my ears. If/when it hits the end of its life I'm not keen to spend over $500 to replace it.
 

JP

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Don't be like that! :) You know we all like to go cheaper if possible, so why not here? Especially with things that need replacement like stylii do. And it would make tinkering more available! With prices going up, my stylus now costs as much as as I payed for the entire cart.

@USER do you perhaps have measurements for AT-VM540ML? I'm very curious to see them. Or you maybe know of such site where I could find measurements?

540/740 does best with low Cl and Rl around 36k.

VM740ML_150pF 36K_TRS-1007.png
 

mike70

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Assuming you are sincere (since this is a friendly forum), I don't think he is saying that there is an obvious way to produce quality cartridges with a process that would cost less than a PS5. I think he is saying that having $500 consumables makes listening to vinyl an extravagance, and he is using the PS5 -- which is not a consumable, and should last for many many plays/years -- as an arbitrary standard of comparison. If it costs a company $1000 to make a razor blade, then I understand not charging less to sell that blade, but it is perfectly reasonable for someone who likes to shave to find the price unacceptable and hope for someone to come out with something far cheaper.

For me one of the attractions of vinyl is that it is a venerable old technology that can be kept operating as new practically forever. Having components that are either not replaceable at all (like some Beo cartridges), or are effectively nonreplaceable because of price, runs counter to that attraction.

Back in 1989 I bought a Sumiko Blue Point #2 for around $75 (which would be $180 in today's money); I thought it was an extravagance at the time. For most of its life it has been sitting in storage on a Denon turntable awaiting repair. Last week I retrieved the cartridge (the turntable is still borked) to put on our current active table; the sound is marvelous to my ears. If/when it hits the end of its life I'm not keen to spend over $500 to replace it.

Well, in my experience, I don't think you need a 1k cartridge to have the best from vinyl .. But I also think you don't have it with a 100 USD cartridge.

One carat diamond (.2 grams) costs 2k USD as best and a nude stylus with a complex profile cut with laser at hand ... many times with a boron cantilever ... well you understand. Then you need to put it rightly in the cartridge body to fit the azimuth and specified rake angle. A bonded conical stylus (not nude) have only a tiny piece of diamond attached to a metal basement, aluminum cantilever, polished as a sphere, and without the need of that precision ... is pretty cheap. The AT vm95c goes for something like 30 - 40 USD.

But ... you have the best with vinyl with that? Oh, my dear, absolutely not ... or you're living in your grandfather vinyl times.

So, I have my arguments, and more important, my experience to say "oh, yes, I really can spend 400 USD on a cartridge". If you don't want to reach to that reproduction "level", obviously, is ok ... but we cannot see it as a nature truth. Is what YOU want from vinyl ...but it isn't the the last frontier in the format. At all.
 
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