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Tone control

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LouB

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Hi

My advice is off the beaten path.

One of the most useful "Tone Control" in my opinion is a variable loudness. I know of two that are said to be efficient: Audyssey Dynamic EQ (DEQ) and the RME Variable Loudness. I have only experienced Audyssey DEQ and it is to me, mandatory.
If the Tone Control is to be used on an album or track basis, a two button, bass and treble, could be a solution. If, however it is used to modify the general sound to taste, I would suggest something more sophisticated such as an FIR PEQ. I could be called a fanboi, but an AVR compatible with Audyssey MultEQ-X App is the solution. Something like the Denon AVX-X3700H. You get 7 powerful amplifiers (I know, you only need 2), you get Audyssey Digital Room Correction, Dynamic EQ, and with the MultEQ-X App you get a very high and fine grained level of control on the room and sound correction. I believe you can implement up to 24 filters, I could be wrong, as it may support more...
Not the most efficient solution in term of electrical consumption and there is a lot of unneeded features but I don't know of any integrated that has this kind of audio processing power.. Perhaps the Lyngdorf TDA-1200. It is, new, above your budget.

I know, a bit against the grain, type of advice: Denon AVR-X3700H

In my opinion an AVR is the best anchor for any audio system music or HT, 2-Channel of Multichannel.

Peace.
You know you may be right, but I've lived with a Yamaha AV amp for the last 5 years & it really puts out a fantastic video hearing experience & OK 2 channel music. It has a built form of room correction but it's very limited I think it only detects each speakers & sub volume than adjust it. I won't be changing out that amp. I'm adding a music only amp because I do not like the Yamaha for music. I imagine if I A/B the Dennon against the Marantz it could go either way but I just want a dedicated 2 channel amp. I know I'm giving up room correction at the cost of some audio/listening quality and a boat load of versatility but I'm looking for simple I'm even getting speakers that will not require a sub. A very basic 2.0 system.

@LouB this seems the way to go imo. The amps you prelisted, Marantz, Cambridge and Arcam just aren't as clean as the Denon (Sinad wise) and cannot touch it's eq possibilities. As a bonus you can integrate future subs too.

And the Denon AVR-X3700H is on sale right now. You'd have all you need for now and the future for around 1200 dollars/euros.
Not so sure about the SINAD thing. The THD on the Marantz is better than the Dennon & from what I've read the SINAD differences in those amps will not cause any audible difference, not sure I'm correct on this. However I belive the Cambridge, ACRAM & Marantz will sound just as clean if not better than the Dennon.
 

Marc v E

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You know you may be right, but I've lived with a Yamaha AV amp for the last 5 years & it really puts out a fantastic video hearing experience & OK 2 channel music. It has a built form of room correction but it's very limited I think it only detects each speakers & sub volume than adjust it. I won't be changing out that amp. I'm adding a music only amp because I do not like the Yamaha for music. I imagine if I A/B the Dennon against the Marantz it could go either way but I just want a dedicated 2 channel amp. I know I'm giving up room correction at the cost of some audio/listening quality and a boat load of versatility but I'm looking for simple I'm even getting speakers that will not require a sub. A very basic 2.0 system.


Not so sure about the SINAD thing. The THD on the Marantz is better than the Dennon & from what I've read the SINAD differences in those amps will not cause any audible difference, not sure I'm correct on this. However I belive the Cambridge, ACRAM & Marantz will sound just as clean if not better than the Dennon.
What kind of speakers do you have for multichannel? Does it have a decent sub? Can you also share your setup as in where your speakers are located and what your seating position is?

I'm asking because it far outweighs the points that your asking advice on.
 
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LouB

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I'm asking because it far outweighs the points that your asking advice on.
Not even close. I asked, if tone control on a modern 2 channel integrated amp is detrimental to the audible sound. And there are overwhelming posts here that say tone controls are not detrimental to the sound. I received a lot of informed advice in this thread from members on that exact question.
If your referring to anything to do with an AV amp I explained it already & I'll repeat it if I wasn't clear, I don't want an AV amp for music, I don't want room correction, DSP, any or add ons to process the sound. Sorry for any confusion there.
 

Willem

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I use an RME-ADI DAC/preamp for this purpose.
So do I and it is amazing. Tone (adjustable) and balance control, plus dynamic loudness and a series of adjustable parametric filters. It also measures extremely well. It really does not get any better. Add a decent Hypex based power amp and you are probably still within your budget.
 

tomtoo

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The problem with typical bass/treble tone controle is they are not often usefull.

Having just a shelf at 300Hz and 3khz (or somewhere around this) makes things often more bad than good. Thats more a effect than precise. I not talk about a littel higher s/n or phase shifts, just that the use cases for bennefit from them are realy very low.
In the digital world software peq is so much more usefull, that i realy see no need or any tone controle on amps.
 

Willem

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The RME ADI-2 DAC has it all, of course: you can adjust the frequency range of the tone control, and how much it does. The same is true for the dynamic loudness function, not to mention the filters. Only a fully adjustable digital graphic equalizer will do more.
 

Marc v E

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@LouB thank you for clarifying. You do understand then that (ime) a 2 channel power amp and treble plus bass control will give you no benefit over an AVR? Tone controls may not be audibly detrimental to the sound, but it will get you spending a lot of money where you won't get the most audible benefits.

That's the reason why imo others have suggested the rme adi dac plus hypex power amp as it controls eq in the dsp of the dac. This does give a benefit over an AVR as in better sinad and higher power amps (and tone control that may be good enough for your needs).

The end result though will be determined in order of importance by: speakers, sub, eq, high power amp, tone controls. Where the last two will trade places based on the loudness you listen to your music.
 
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levimax

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The problem with typical bass/treble tone controle is they are not often usefull.

Having just a shelf at 300Hz and 3khz (or somewhere around this) makes things often more bad than good. Thats more a effect than precise. I not talk about a littel higher s/n or phase shifts, just that the use cases for bennefit from them are realy very low.
In the digital world software peq is so much more usefull, that i realy see no need or any tone controle on amps.
Another perspective. The Baxandall tone control circuit is the most used circuit in the history of audio. "Precision" is not the point, that is what you use room / speaker EQ for. The point of tone controls is real time adjustment for dodgy recordings or Fletcher-Munson adjustments for extra low or extra loud playing or for preference. For this purpose tone controls work quite well.
 

BJL

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I have a Pioneer LX505, which does have a simple tone control (bass/dialog/treble) accessed easily via the remote app (iPhone & Android as well, I think). I sometimes increase the bass by raising the control to plus 3dB. I have found it to be very effective with no appreciable distortion, at least, not to the extent that it interferes with the music. It's very good in conjunction with Dirac, especially listening to music at lower volume, as Dirac sometimes tends to attenuate the bass such that at lower listening levels bass is insufficient. The Pioneer also has a separate EQ section, which I have found to be generally useless.
 

tomtoo

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Another perspective. The Baxandall tone control circuit is the most used circuit in the history of audio. "Precision" is not the point, that is what you use room / speaker EQ for. The point of tone controls is real time adjustment for dodgy recordings or Fletcher-Munson adjustments for extra low or extra loud playing or for preference. For this purpose tone controls work quite well.

If you have full tone control with digital peq, why you should use something else?
I did not say they never work, i just sayed they not often work. From my point of view i use digital peq they are completly useless.
 

ZolaIII

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If you have full tone control with digital peq, why you should use something else?
I did not say they never work, i just sayed they not often work. From my point of view i use digital peq they are completly useless.
Equal loudness normalization in short of course there are digital implementations of it but at very best they aren't that handy to use.
 

tomtoo

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Equal loudness normalization in short of course there are digital implementations of it but at very best they aren't that handy to use.

But loudness is not the typical 2 way tone controle i talked about. You can like it or not. Cool would be a dynamic eq where you can program a max. Vol curve and a min vol curve and the eq would interpolate depending on vol. At least i would try it. Buuuut i talked about the good old 2 way tone controles.
 

levimax

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If you have full tone control with digital peq, why you should use something else?
I did not say they never work, i just sayed they not often work. From my point of view i use digital peq they are completly useless.
I do not like computer sliders and latency and having to program for something I don't use all the time ... turning a knob with real time response is my preference, for me it is the right tool for the job.
 

fpitas

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Less significant does not mean the same thing as "vastly superior". In fact it is not even settled science that phase shift at the level caused by tone controls is audible at all.
The audiophiles are worried about the phase shift? Of a purely mnimum phase device? I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
 

tomtoo

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I do not like computer sliders and latency and having to program for something I don't use all the time ... turning a knob with real time response is my preference, for me it is the right tool for the job.

I understand. I somehow like real knobs also. But the job has to get done. And if a digital slider does it better???
Latency? I not have to care as long listening just to music.
 

Hiten

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In old days there used to be analog ICs which served as tone controls in one package. the yamaha I posted in post #29 looks like amplifiers like these have controls as one has to select bass/treble from push buttons and the volume dial serves as to control bass and treble. Does that mean the input signals go through some degital conversion ? or How does this work ?
thanks and regards.
 

Waxx

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no, it's an analog ic that does the eq, but it's controlled by an digital ic that regulated the motorised potentiometers in the eq schema. Or at least that is how it was done longtime since the 1980's. In these days it could be a dsp also but that yamaha does not have a dsp i think, it looks like a full analog integrated amp with digital display and control buttoms.

dz0xMjAwJmg9OTA5_src_63050-yamaha-a-s201-fot5.jpg
 

tomtoo

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In old days there used to be analog ICs which served as tone controls in one package. the yamaha I posted in post #29 looks like amplifiers like these have controls as one has to select bass/treble from push buttons and the volume dial serves as to control bass and treble. Does that mean the input signals go through some degital conversion ? or How does this work ?
thanks and regards.

Dont know exactly how they work. But you only need to store digital the control signal for a vca to do something like this. So the input/output signal is still analog.
 

Hiten

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no, it's an analog ic that does the eq, but it's controlled by an digital ic that regulated the motorised potentiometers in the eq schema. Or at least that is how it was done longtime since the 1980's. In these days it could be a dsp also but that yamaha does not have a dsp i think, it looks like a full analog integrated amp with digital display and control buttoms.

From the top view of front panel it does not look like having a traditional potentiometers with motor for bass and treble inside.
The front push buttons controls the tone as seen in video at 0.13 sec
I think when pure direct mode is off the bass and treble push buttons controls some tone circuit through RC filters ?
not sure though.
------
Some cambridge audio models has another scheme where one selects the tone (for ex. bass) through push button and then the volume control knob controls the bass.. at 3.30 sec.
 

Waxx

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Wel, if you want to go technical, you can check the service manual, and see they use the very generic BD3491FS IC for input switchting, eq and volume. That is an analog IC. that has a kind of varistors build in that can be controlled by other ic's (analog or digital). The buttons steer the digital chip (in the service manual called the RS100JEAFA, but unknown to me), that also manage the display and the rotary. That is called digital controlled analog with IC's. That can also be done discrete, but it's much harder and expensive to do it right that way so most do it with IC's (and when done right it's not an issue).
 
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