Genelec Dual Sub Optimisation

[Sparky]

Are you joking? Genelec bass management is pretty much second to none.

It applies steep, phase optimised, 48 dB/oct filters in digital domain, to both LP and HP -branches.

AVR´s bass management typically have basic crappy 12 dB/okt HP and 24 dB/oct LP. They are too shallow to begin with, and definitely not optimised with anything. They can cause weird phase-/freq response behavior, which unexperienced user may confuse to room´s doings. Using GLM avoids all that.


GLM´s crossover adjustment range is 50-100 Hz, which is completely sane range for subwoofer cross. It won´t let user to set 25 Hz sub cross, because its downright unsane setting to begin with. Smart device guiding unsmart user to do correct choices, isn´t it just positive?


If some camel boots etc. self made MacGyver -user wants to cross his sub from 5 Hz, or lets say directly from DC, that´s his problem, not GLM´s...

Your enthusiasm for the GLM software is clear to see but I feel your judgement is being clouded by this.

Genelec Bass Management is, at best, a very basic version of what the likes of DIRAC, Anthem Room Correction and Trinnov have been doing for a very long time.
I do agree though that DIRAC is always making promises when it comes to it's room correction software!!

I have personal experience all of the above with the Trinnov version being by far the most in-depth and precise Bass Management suite I have ever had the pleasure to use.

I think you are confusing the difference between a GLM user who owns only Genelec SAM monitors and subwoofers with a non Genelec user who will be using (9 times out of ten) multiple speakers with subwoofers that are not designed to work with those particular speakers.

In an "all Genelec" system, the GLM software is hard to beat but the vast majority of users will be using non Genelec speakers and subwoofers so therefore will need a room correction suite which is versatile in its operation.
You just cannot possibly compare GLM's bass management with either of the above mentioned bass management systems.
They are completely different in operation and scope and cannot be compared as an "apples to apples" comparison.

I might add, a typical REW user is a very experienced user and will only attempt to utilise REW if confident to do so (which only the very few are capable of doing).

It took me YEARS to learn how to use REW for aligning subwoofers and applying a suitable crossover to the mains.
I have not even scratched the surface as to the capabilities of REW so please don't assume that people who measure their room and use REW to be incompetent or anything of the sort because they are most certainly not my friend.

 

[tifune]

Are you using two Genelec subwoofers together as one "dual mono" set up?

As far as I'm aware, as of GLM 4.2, GLM now allows for subwoofers to be placed in a specific group to be fed an identical signal and to be treated as one subwoofer.
Have you tried this and if so, what was the outsome?

I do know that GLM sets a standard crossover of 85hz which can be manually adjusted by the user but the danger in that is that, if you don't measure the response with software (REW) then you're none the wiser as to what the effect of that crossover alteration has on your set up.

I have sent a lengthy email to Natt at Genelec support for more detailed information on this.

I use them as L/R for 8 monitors. I do it a little differently. each monitor+7350 is detected as full range by my Denon, then i cross over at 40Hz to 12" ELAC sub. This is a dedicated upmixing setup, I probably wouldn't recommend it for movies/TV.

You're also correct that GLM doesn't do any post-measurement verification; I put in a feature request with Genelec support to add it. Maybe if others do the same it'll get traction?

 

[Sparky]

I use them as L/R for 8 monitors. I do it a little differently. each monitor+7350 is detected as full range by my Denon, then i cross over at 40Hz to 12" ELAC sub. This is a dedicated upmixing setup, I probably wouldn't recommend it for movies/TV.

You're also correct that GLM doesn't do any post-measurement verification; I put in a feature request with Genelec support to add it. Maybe if others do the same it'll get traction?

Oh wow! Your set up sounds awesome!
You must've spent a small fortune on all that gear!!

Can I ask why you are upmixing if not for movies? Is it for SACD type multichannel audio? Either way it sounds brilliant!
I'll never forget hearing a multichannel audio track at my friend's house a few years ago and it was like nothing I had heard before! It went beyond immersive!

Yeah, you have to trust GLM's results if you're not verifying with REW or some other software afterwards.

In my email to Genelec, I stated at the end of the email that there is a very strong home user following and that they should maybe start trying to listen to us more.
They need to think outside of the Pro audio box as they'd do extremely well if they supported us home users too!

 

[Sparky]

Just a small update/correction from Genelec this morning.........

Hi Mike,

Apologies for interruption,
I've just got updated information from our RD that there's some answer need to be correct from previous reply.

Will GLM treat both the subwoofer group and the monitor group as one “full range” signal when applying the necessary room correction filters.
-All monitors and subwoofer magnitude responses are calibrated individually. Only exception is the monitors with same "calibration group ID", which share symmetrical notch and shelving filters above 300 Hz. Goal is to avoid phase differences between monitors, which can degrade imaging.

Apologies about this one, hope you find this correction useful.
Thank you and a great day!

 

[Ellebob]

Another thing to remember using multiple subs is if you only care about one seat, multiple subs are not necessary. Put your seat and sub in a good location without dips and let EQ take care of the peaks. In HT we care about about getting a good response in multiple seats so multiple subs definitely helps getting a more consistent seat to seat response.
This may not be necessary in the studio as really only one seat can be correct not only for subs but for speakers as well. With delays and levels there will always only be one seat where those are perfect. And if you want the best presentation you sit in that seat. GLM might be better suited for the studio where it might measure multiple locations to get an idea of the room but is likely more focused on getting that perfect presentation in only one main location.

 

[FrantzM]

Another thing to remember using multiple subs is if you only care about one seat, multiple subs are not necessary. Put your seat and sub in a good location without dips and let EQ take care of the peaks. In HT we care about about getting a good response in multiple seats so multiple subs definitely helps getting a more consistent seat to seat response.
This may not be necessary in the studio as really only one seat can be correct not only for subs but for speakers as well. With delays and levels there will always only be one seat where those are perfect. And if you want the best presentation you sit in that seat. GLM might be better suited for the studio where it might measure multiple locations to get an idea of the room but is likely more focused on getting that perfect presentation in only one main location.

Hi
Not true and this is a bit more complicated. Many have noticed that by moving a few inches within the listening position volume, the bass response could change. In my room. MSO solved this for me, with 2 subwoofers. One in the left corner and another in the back , near the right side of the LP. I plan to add another subwoofer, this one more potent and reaching lower.

I am not yet convinced that GLM address multiple subwoofers as well as MSO. I don't have Genelec, considering how good these usually are theyare worth consideration. I would however not use Genelec Subwoofers, the cost to effectiveness ratio is not there. Has it been possible for some to use GLM to linearize/optimize their mains, then use another method for multiple non-Genelec subwoofers? MSO for example?

Peace.

 

[Sparky]

Another thing to remember using multiple subs is if you only care about one seat, multiple subs are not necessary. Put your seat and sub in a good location without dips and let EQ take care of the peaks. In HT we care about about getting a good response in multiple seats so multiple subs definitely helps getting a more consistent seat to seat response.
This may not be necessary in the studio as really only one seat can be correct not only for subs but for speakers as well. With delays and levels there will always only be one seat where those are perfect. And if you want the best presentation you sit in that seat. GLM might be better suited for the studio where it might measure multiple locations to get an idea of the room but is likely more focused on getting that perfect presentation in only one main location.

Couldn't agree more with you but at my seat, in my lounge, I require two subs to even out the response and to allow for a touch more headroom. I'm lucky really that the two subwoofer positions available to me (because placement is very limited) work out to my advantage.
I know a number of people that have tried adding another subwoofer and it has been detrimental to the output due to poor location issues.
It's a tricky thing to get right and correct placement is absolutely vital.

 

[danbei]

Will GLM do the necessary time alignment in milliseconds between the two subwoofers to obtain a positive summation (assuming there are no nulls) of the two subwoofers.

-Every subwoofer is paired with a monitor. Correct phase is automatically measured, found and set for the subwoofer to match the monitor phase at crossover frequency. If you want to force both subwoofers to have same delay compensation, you can adjust the phase setting for each subwoofer. Under the hood, phase = delay.
[...]
You can all read into this as much as you like really but I feel that this is a positive response (on the assumption that I asked the right questions in the first place)!

To my understanding, if the sub time alignment is made for the best match between a sub and his paired monitor, most of the time, it won't be the best match between one sub and the other sub. Sounds more like a "no" to your question.

 

[Sparky]

To my understanding, if the sub time alignment is made for the best match between a sub and his paired monitor, most of the time, it won't be the best match between one sub and the other sub. Sounds more like a "no" to your question.

That's where the subwoofer grouping comes into play.
If you group a pair of subwoofers, they will be treated as "one sub" where GLM does the necessary alignment etc etc.

So they say anyway.............

I had 2 x 7360A's on order but I have put the order on hold as I just don't know if I can truly justify over £3k for a pair of subwoofers!

 

[danbei]

That's where the subwoofer grouping comes into play.
If you group a pair of subwoofers, they will be treated as "one sub" where GLM does the necessary alignment etc etc.

So they say anyway.............

The response you quoted only mention adjusting the level for subwoofer grouping, so I'm afraid no time alignment between subs (is this what you are thinking about when you write "the necessary alignment"?).

 

[Pekka Perämoottori]

Your enthusiasm for the GLM software is clear to see but I feel your judgement is being clouded by this.

Genelec Bass Management is, at best, a very basic version of what the likes of DIRAC, Anthem Room Correction and Trinnov have been doing for a very long time.
I do agree though that DIRAC is always making promises when it comes to it's room correction software!!

I have personal experience all of the above with the Trinnov version being by far the most in-depth and precise Bass Management suite I have ever had the pleasure to use.

I think you are confusing the difference between a GLM user who owns only Genelec SAM monitors and subwoofers with a non Genelec user who will be using (9 times out of ten) multiple speakers with subwoofers that are not designed to work with those particular speakers.

In an "all Genelec" system, the GLM software is hard to beat but the vast majority of users will be using non Genelec speakers and subwoofers so therefore will need a room correction suite which is versatile in its operation.
You just cannot possibly compare GLM's bass management with either of the above mentioned bass management systems.
They are completely different in operation and scope and cannot be compared as an "apples to apples" comparison.

I might add, a typical REW user is a very experienced user and will only attempt to utilise REW if confident to do so (which only the very few are capable of doing).

It took me YEARS to learn how to use REW for aligning subwoofers and applying a suitable crossover to the mains.
I have not even scratched the surface as to the capabilities of REW so please don't assume that people who measure their room and use REW to be incompetent or anything of the sort because they are most certainly not my friend.

Yes, GLM bass management requires presence of Genelec subwoofer. It´s not usable with substitute subwoofers. It doesn´t do bass routing either, to user defined exotic adresses. Like LFE-channel to top rear left -channel, for example. That kind of bass management is exclusive for Trinnov/Storm Audio -type AVP´s only.


Of course proper GLM -systems subwoofer must be Genelec too. Otherwise its some eco-budget -half ass solution, and full benefits of GLM won´t realize. This should be clear without writing.

GLM system with different brand sub is like S-series Mercedes with Biltema tachometer -DIY-installed on dashboard. It may function somehow, but... well... usage experience may vary (a lot).

Enthusiastic-economical solution it may be for sure... but we are talking almost insult here... Performance -penalty shots accordingly.


Trinnov AVP´s sure have capable bass managemet. But we are talking rare breed and +20 k€/$ -special gear on those. Definitely not an option for broke non-Genelec-substitute-subwoofer -eco-installers either. Typical Denon/Maranz/Yamaha -basic crap can´t even dream those kind of features.

Full Genelec system seems suddenly cheap compared to those Trinnov -prices...

 

[Pekka Perämoottori]

Subwoofer can´t be completely in phase same time with its main speaker and with something else (with another subwoofer, for example), if they aren´t physically quite close -located. Remember this when doing those manual delay tweakings with MSO etc. DIY-freewares. As top class measuring AI, GLM takes this into account in its adjustment i.e. won´t do stupidities.

 

[Sancus]

The documentation on this feature seems a bit sparse. What does GLM actually do if you group two or more subwoofers? Does it compensate for the SPL of multiple subwoofers playing the same audio channel, or does it actually measure and equalize them differently?

What I'm asking is whether this mainly removes the previous requirement to manually adjust gain with multiple subwoofers, or if it's something like Multi-Sub Optimizer or Dirac Live Bass Control that optimizes multiple subs playing together with independent parameters for each.

Thanks!

Thank you for reaching us. I've just talked with our R&D acoustician who also takes part of GLM development. He said when the subwoofers share same group ID, the gain adjustment is automatically (compensate), so it is no longer required to manually adjust the gain.

Regarding the other question, GLM calibrates/measures each subwoofer individually, to make them flat frequency response.

This matches up with the information from this video here, where they state subwoofer groups are just a replacement for the manual gain process, nothing more.

That makes sense to me, if Genelec had introduced a completely new bass management system, it wouldn't be a small note. They would be talking about it and it would be a significant new section in the manual that explains in detail how it works. But there isn't any of that.

So no, nothing substantial has changed here since I asked the question in 2020. I would caution people against wishful thinking based on vague information in the future

 

[Sparky]

I have decided to put things on hold until I can reach a satisfactory outcome.
As has been mentioned multiple times on this thread, the cost of two 7360A's just cannot be justified when a pair of non Genelec subwoofers will not only out-perform the 7360's but cost half the price!
There is another thing to consider too.....looks.....the Genelec subwoofers are damn ugly and will never look good in a lounge environment (unless you can hide them).

I'm looking a pair of Arendal 1723 S1's on their "outlet" portion of the website which can be had for half the price with much better looks and performance to boot!!

I need to go away and do some serious thinking about this I think................

 

[Trell]

I have decided to put things on hold until I can reach a satisfactory outcome.
As has been mentioned multiple times on this thread, the cost of two 7360A's just cannot be justified when a pair of non Genelec subwoofers will not only out-perform the 7360's but cost half the price!
There is another thing to consider too.....looks.....the Genelec subwoofers are damn ugly and will never look good in a lounge environment (unless you can hide them).

I'm looking a pair of Arendal 1723 S1's on their "outlet" portion of the website which can be had for half the price with much better looks and performance to boot!!

I need to go away and do some serious thinking about this I think................

The Genelec subwoofers aren’t exactly pretty.

My 7360A is sitting under the desktop in a corner completely out of sight. My usage is for a desktop 2.1 setup, but I don’t think my wife would accept an 7370 or 7380 in the living room.

 

[Sparky]

The Genelec subwoofers aren’t exactly pretty.

My 7360A is sitting under the desktop in a corner completely out of sight. My usage is for a desktop 2.1 setup, but I don’t think my wife would accept an 7370 or 7380 in the living room.

Very true! It wouldn't be so bad if they did a white version but they only do a version with a white facia where the driver is positioned with the rest of the subwoofer cabinet being black. that would work if your subwoofer was hidden in a small opening where only the front of the sub would be visible.

I've already enquired about a white 7360A with the above answer being given PLUS, they charge a whopping mark up for doing it too!!

Trust me, I've thought of every which way to hide them including having bespoke coverings made to match our existing furniture but then there's the issue of heat not being able to escape.

I could probably get away with 2 x 7350A's due to their smaller size but I doubt they would suffice due to their poor LF extension.

 

[Kervel]

Why not cover them with a thin cloth of any color/pattern? Or thin wallpaper in a wood veneer color for the sides, and a wooden table on top? Needs only a tiny bit of DIY

 

[Sparky]

Why not cover them with a thin cloth of any color/pattern? Or thin wallpaper in a wood veneer color for the sides, and a wooden table on top? Needs only a tiny bit of DIY

I thought of that too! I imagined I could fashion a small wooden frame to sit over the top of the 7360/7350 and fix a nice cloth that matches the lounge decor and allow the cloth to drape over them.

But, as I said earlier, thinking about the cost of these subwoofers when compared to other non-Genelec subs, I'm struggling to justify it.

 

[Sparky]

Looking a bit deeper into the Arendal line up of subwoofers, the 1723 range had an app control which allows you to set group delay for multiple subwoofers! I never knew that!

That means no need for minidsp products at all either!

 

[Trell]

I could probably get away with 2 x 7350A's due to their smaller size but I doubt they would suffice due to their poor LF extension.

I tried first the 7350 for my desktop setup but returned it and got the 7360 instead as I wanted it louder and a little deeper.

On the other I just ordered a 7350 for wife’s 8330A desktop setup for improved bass. She does not play loud, and that the 7350 is compact is a plus here.