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Does Roon Sound Better?

stunta

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On a slightly related note, is there an easy way to measure if a specific digital chain is bit-perfect? My chain is DLNA server (FLAC files) -> BubbleUPnP application -> Chromecast Audio (TOSLINK output), and I would love to perform some testing.

As Amir said, its not easy. A while ago, for an entirely different reason, I was using an ADC to record to file and then compare the files using a freeware tool (http://www.libinst.com/Audio DiffMaker.htm) which back then was controversial for reasons I can't remember. Introducing the analog domain into the chain results in non-deterministic output which results in uncertainty.

A lot of times, unless its open source and you can understand the code, it is a matter of trust. I've communicated with Roon folks a while ago and being a software engineer myself, I was able to gauge their design & coding principles to some extent. That led me to trust them.

I don't know what the DCS renderer does, but it could have bugs and or features that change the incoming streaming somehow. Roon may have bugs too. I would prefer Roon because I trust them to do the right thing.
 

LF78

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Another option could be to feed the last output of the chain (TOSLINK in my case) back to a PC and analyze the data. What do you think? I think I will get a cheap USB sound card with TOSLINK input and try it.
 

amirm

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Another option could be to feed the last output of the chain (TOSLINK in my case) back to a PC and analyze the data. What do you think? I think I will get a cheap USB sound card with TOSLINK input and try it.
That should work too.
 

bravomail

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while I agree that outputing bits on Windows is the same for all players when using WASAPI or Asio4All, I remember seeing a discussion around Android players, the ones capable of supporting advanced built-in DACs, which some of phones sport - like LG V10-V40, LG G6-G7, Zte Axon 7 etc There ppl compared built-in stock player which was supplied by manufacturer vs PowerAmp with beta DAC support (free trial available). They did claim that the players had a different sound signature due to tuning of their internal equalizers. It was long ago, before I learned the DACs, the bits etc. Does anyone have an experience in this domain? I know many music players on Android come with basic equalizer, but I find it hard to believe that even with equalizer turned off there will be still some processing applied. Ideas? Thoughts? Measurements?
 

pwjazz

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while I agree that outputing bits on Windows is the same for all players when using WASAPI or Asio4All, I remember seeing a discussion around Android players, the ones capable of supporting advanced built-in DACs, which some of phones sport - like LG V10-V40, LG G6-G7, Zte Axon 7 etc There ppl compared built-in stock player which was supplied by manufacturer vs PowerAmp with beta DAC support (free trial available). They did claim that the players had a different sound signature due to tuning of their internal equalizers. It was long ago, before I learned the DACs, the bits etc. Does anyone have an experience in this domain? I know many music players on Android come with basic equalizer, but I find it hard to believe that even with equalizer turned off there will be still some processing applied. Ideas? Thoughts? Measurements?

By default Android audio goes through the OS mixer, which upsamples 16/44 to 16/48 before passing it to the DAC. I won't weigh in on whether or not this matters or is audible, but it's definitely not bit perfect going into the DAC.

Audiophile players like Neutron get around this by converting everything to 24 bits,
which for whatever reason causes Android to send the audio straight to hardware, thus preserving the original sample rate.
 

tlr

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One easy (but not cheap) way to test "bit-perfect"-ness is the RME ADI-2 DAC or Pro has a built-in "bit test". You just download these wav files and play them back to the RME, and if they come through bit-perfect it displays "Bit test 16 Bit passed" (or 24 or 32 bit) on the screen: http://www.rme-audio.de/download/bit_test_wavs.zip

I just tested Roon with the RME ADI-2 DAC using USB (on a Mac) and via Chromecast Audio TOSLINK.

USB passed 44.1 kHz, 96 kHz, and 192 kHz with 16-bits and 24-bits (but not 32-bits). I guess Roon doesn't support 32-bit playback (not that you'd be able to tell a difference)

CCA TOSLINK passed 44.1 kHz and 96 kHz (but not 192 kHz) with 16 bits and 24 bits (but not 32 bits). That's in line with the advertised specs of 24-bit/96KHz.

I also tried HQPlayer via USB and all 9 tests, including the 32 bit ones, passed.
 

Typevii

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Roon ROCK on a nuc then USB to my RME ADI-2 DAC passes 16, 24 and 32bit. Same if I stream over wifi to a pi then USB to to the RME. Bitperfect passes for all the files.
Sounds the same ;-)
 

jackenhack

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Hey guys, shouldn't we go easy on the kid? Yes, he is misinformed, but instead of driving him away, why not instead show him why this excellent forum is called AudioScienceReview and explain why he can't trust everything he reads in magazines that depend on pseudoscience to survive? There's a bunch of smart people here, so by including him, he might learn something and help spread the word.

Just a thought.
 

PierreV

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DCS Rossini DAC, $24,000; player, $28,000

OK, a mere $52000...

When originally introduced in 2015, the Rossini was an immediate hit. Though far from cheap, it nailed features and sound for the money. When you listen to the Rossini, all you hear is beautifully fleshed-out music.

that provided a wonderful experience...

The Rossini’s sound and value make for a compelling story; but even more striking is the Rossini’s ability to morph as time and new technology demand. With a simple downloaded update, it instantly incorporates two of the most important recent developments in digital audio: MQA and Roon. Between them, they catapult this unit into a new class of sonics and operability.

until it was catapulted (by a propulsive Samba I guess?) into a completely new class.

I think this is going to be hard to beat in terms of insanity...
 

LF78

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I also tried HQPlayer via USB and all 9 tests, including the 32 bit ones, passed.

Any chance to perform a quick test (when you have the time and inclination) with CCA driven by BubbleUPnP app? Thanks in advance! :)
 

gvl

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One easy (but not cheap) way to test "bit-perfect"-ness is the RME ADI-2 DAC or Pro has a built-in "bit test". You just download these wav files and play them back to the RME, and if they come through bit-perfect it displays "Bit test 16 Bit passed" (or 24 or 32 bit) on the screen: http://www.rme-audio.de/download/bit_test_wavs.zip

I just tested Roon with the RME ADI-2 DAC using USB (on a Mac) and via Chromecast Audio TOSLINK.

USB passed 44.1 kHz, 96 kHz, and 192 kHz with 16-bits and 24-bits (but not 32-bits). I guess Roon doesn't support 32-bit playback (not that you'd be able to tell a difference)

CCA TOSLINK passed 44.1 kHz and 96 kHz (but not 192 kHz) with 16 bits and 24 bits (but not 32 bits). That's in line with the advertised specs of 24-bit/96KHz.

I also tried HQPlayer via USB and all 9 tests, including the 32 bit ones, passed.

How did you test the CCA, using Android phone? Was the volume set to 100?
 

tlr

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I tested CCA via Roon on Mac.

I'll have to find my old Android tablet to test BubbleUPnP.
 

LF78

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I'll have to find my old Android tablet to test BubbleUPnP.

I learnt just now that BubbleUPnP app is Android only, I thought there was also an iOS version. Yeah, when and if you have time :)
 

Deacon Blues

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I have a question, and it may be a silly one. Is there any way to quantify a 16/44.1 signal in measurement? I guess what I'm asking is if you can test a 16/44.1 track from Roon, then a 24/96, 24/192, and actually see the differences in the waveforms. Also, whether or not this is audible to human ears. My hearing stops around 16khz. Another question is, is 24/44.1 better suited for the market?
 

JanRSmit

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I have a question, and it may be a silly one. Is there any way to quantify a 16/44.1 signal in measurement? I guess what I'm asking is if you can test a 16/44.1 track from Roon, then a 24/96, 24/192, and actually see the differences in the waveforms. Also, whether or not this is audible to human ears. My hearing stops around 16khz. Another question is, is 24/44.1 better suited for the market?
Your hearing stops at 16k in single frequency tests. That does not mean it stops there in complex signals like music. Nor is of a measure for resolving differences in sound.
 

Deacon Blues

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Your hearing stops at 16k in single frequency tests. That does not mean it stops there in complex signals like music. Nor is of a measure for resolving differences in sound.
So doing a null test of the waveforms will relay the differences, correct?
 

jackenhack

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I have a question, and it may be a silly one. Is there any way to quantify a 16/44.1 signal in measurement? I guess what I'm asking is if you can test a 16/44.1 track from Roon, then a 24/96, 24/192, and actually see the differences in the waveforms. Also, whether or not this is audible to human ears. My hearing stops around 16khz. Another question is, is 24/44.1 better suited for the market?

Well, there's conflicting evidence of the advantage of higher sampling rates. I do like 24-bit for the same reason music studios like it, because of all the processing I do with the sound, like convolving and equalization etc.

There is a great and cheap program for checking high-res music. It's called MusicScope and highly recommended.
 

Deacon Blues

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Well, there's conflicting evidence of the advantage of higher sampling rates. I do like 24-bit for the same reason music studios like it, because of all the processing I do with the sound, like convolving and equalization etc.

There is a great and cheap program for checking high-res music. It's called MusicScope and highly recommended.
Thank you for this. As a musician myself, I try not to fall for this audiophoolery. I know when we record the mics are more important than the cables, kind of thing.
 
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