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Anybody PREFER listening to music on bookshelves or tower speakers only (without the subwoofer)?

Doodski

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dlaloum

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Yes definitely. You can optimize the woofers in the tower along with any other woofers or subs in the room. Still wouldn’t it be better for the DSP to access the woofer in the tower via digital crossover directly?
The woofers in my Gallo Reference speakers, do have a 2nd Voice coil, intended for its own independent amplifier - which bypasses the crossover, and allows for optimised DSP use...

But my experiments have so far not shown any benefit to using that. Dirac Live seems to do a good job, and BiAmping, and giving Dirac access to the woofer as a "Subwoofer" channel, doesn't seem to improve things.

But a future Dirac SRC might well be a whole new ball game...
 

dlaloum

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The JBL M2 has the DSP capability when using the class D Crown amps with the profile built in that can be used for fine tuning and X-over adjustments. So a active big box versus a active small box? I suppose it depends on the SPL desired in order to determine what speaker fits where.
I tried that with a pair of Crown XLS amps - but overall I found the end result no different than the Crowns driving straight (without BiAmping and DSP)

I think what is needed to eke another level of improvement out of the setup is room level spatial processing via DSP... straight DSP based crossovers may provide benefits in some cases, but so far not in mine.
 

srrxr71

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The JBL M2 has the DSP capability when using the class D Crown amps with the profile built in that can be used for fine tuning and X-over adjustments. So an active big box versus an active small box? I suppose it depends on the SPL desired in order to determine what speaker fits where.
It bothers me that it’s a 2-way but those guy forgot more about making speakers than I know.

Dual diaphragm dual voice coil. Is that like a concentric drive unit?

I’m wish we could see ASR test results on that.
 

srrxr71

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The woofers in my Gallo Reference speakers, do have a 2nd Voice coil, intended for its own independent amplifier - which bypasses the crossover, and allows for optimised DSP use...

But my experiments have so far not shown any benefit to using that. Dirac Live seems to do a good job, and BiAmping, and giving Dirac access to the woofer as a "Subwoofer" channel, doesn't seem to improve things.

But a future Dirac SRC might well be a whole new ball game...
So the gallo crossover is analog? What is SRC and what would it add?

I guess going digital for crossover mostly allows phase correction which I heard does not really have audible effects.
 

dlaloum

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So the gallo crossover is analog? What is SRC and what would it add?

I guess going digital for crossover mostly allows phase correction which I heard does not really have audible effects.
The Gallo internal crossover within the speaker, between midrange and woofer, is analogue.... and connects to the woofers first voice coil
The woofers 2nd voice coil is direct connected to a set of input binding posts...

For best results, if using the 2nd input, you need to also put a High Pass on the main input (so little or no signal hits the first voice coil)

The Crown amp's DSP allows for flexible crossover points, but doesn't do anything with phase etc... - However Dirac Live handles phase and impulse

Dirac's SRC is going to be the next big thing in Room DSP... up to circa 1kHz:



Sort of a cross between DLBC and Noise Cancelling active correction type technology.... with inspiration from MIMO methods that have been used for quite a while in Radio Frequency areas such as WiFi....
Basically every low frequency capable driver in the room (with a seperate channel) - becomes an active participant in the provision of bass and both the Equalisation and the active correction thereof.... will this be able to overcome inherent room nodes? - I am not sure of that. But this does offer promise as a step above and beyond, and a situation where an all "Full Range Tower" surround setup would become a logical option.
 

Doodski

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If I had the space to need that kind of SPL I wouldn’t think twice.
Yeah, apparently they go pretty good. :D I've experience with big JBLs and found that they are fun.
I would however find a way to tilt that tweeter down to hit my ears exactly right.
Possibly a couple of wedges or shims would alleviate that required tilt..
 

srrxr71

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The Gallo internal crossover within the speaker, between midrange and woofer, is analogue.... and connects to the woofers first voice coil
The woofers 2nd voice coil is direct connected to a set of input binding posts...

For best results, if using the 2nd input, you need to also put a High Pass on the main input (so little or no signal hits the first voice coil)

The Crown amp's DSP allows for flexible crossover points, but doesn't do anything with phase etc... - However Dirac Live handles phase and impulse

Dirac's SRC is going to be the next big thing in Room DSP... up to circa 1kHz:



Sort of a cross between DLBC and Noise Cancelling active correction type technology.... with inspiration from MIMO methods that have been used for quite a while in Radio Frequency areas such as WiFi....
Basically every low frequency capable driver in the room (with a seperate channel) - becomes an active participant in the provision of bass and both the Equalisation and the active correction thereof.... will this be able to overcome inherent room nodes? - I am not sure of that. But this does offer promise as a step above and beyond, and a situation where an all "Full Range Tower" surround setup would become a logical option.
I could not imagine sending a signal to the first voice coil that is not high passed. Just thinking of 2 different (slightly perhaps) signals to the 2 voice coils makes me feel like something will go wrong. However I doubt that is possible from where the forces are acting. The correction might just have half the effect I suppose.

It’s interesting they went with 2 voice coils instead of a simple switch of sorts. There must be a reason.

I wonder where this and multi sub optimization we have from a nice user we have differs. Would have to read up on MSO again and the new Dirac materials.

I’m sure Dirac is more advanced in applying MIMO techniques. In that case wouldn’t it still be optimal for one position instead of slight less optimal situation for the whole room?

I guess it could be either if they steer and or cancel waves hitting walls or corners.

I’ve gone whole hog on room treatments but many cannot for various reasons and this is going to be great for those situations.

I’d still try to get a decorative cloud thing on the ceiling if possible.

Incredible technology. Will require more speakers ($$$) but it might just get me into multichannel. Even better if it track you and adjust for your position changes.
 
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dlaloum

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I could not imagine sending a signal to the first voice coil that is not high passed. Just thinking of 2 different (slightly perhaps) signals to the 2 voice coils makes me feel like something will go wrong. However I doubt that is possible from where the forces are acting. The correction might just have half the effect I suppose.

It’s interesting they went with 2 voice coils instead of a simple switch of sorts. There must be a reason.
The feed to the first voice coil (via the main binding posts) goes via a full analogue crossover - so Low Pass to the woofer, High pass to the midrange and tweeter.

The feed to the 2nd voice coil (via the "woofer" binding posts) has no analogue components between amp and voice coil - it is up to the user to ensure the signal is properly low passed - obviously sending the woofer high frequencies, will merely cause distortion...

Gallo also had a dedicated woofer amp available with appropriate crossover capability etc... which was sold especially to drive the woofer via the 2nd voice coil - but you can use any amp of sufficient power/current and a suitable High Pass filter (whether in-line analogue, or via digital DSP).

A few years back I used some inline FMOD filters to achieve it

Later I also did it using the onboard DSP Crossover on a Crown XLS amp

I’ve gone whole hog on room treatments but many cannot for various reasons and this is going to be great for those situations.

I’d still try to get a decorative cloud thing on the ceiling if possible.

Incredible technology. Will require more speakers ($$$) but it might just get me into multichannel. Even better if it track you and adjust for your position changes.

My setup is in a shared "open" style lounge/dining/kitchen space... so application of non approved acoustic treatments, can cause domestic strife...

Whereas something like Dirac SRC may well help a lot without needing additional aesthetically challenged treatments.
 

DMill

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My experience is for obvious reasons bookshelf speakers are much better in environments where you sit up to 6-8 feet from them - much better coherence and so on. Tower floor-standing speakers may perform better in a larger room. My -expensive- end game speakers for a larger room performed pitifully in my smaller down-sized environment when I moved.

IMO these days with a capable setup that is able to offload lower frequencies from your main speakers and offloads those to a carefully placed subwoofer is a superior option. It's more flexible, more coherent anywhere you place the stuff.
This was my experience too. I bought a house with my girlfriend just before COVID and found myself with less room for gear. The towers were just too much for the room, which has to function as a living room and not just a music room. I never thought I'd be happy with bookshelves and a sub, but started trolling here and figured I'd give it a shot. I couldn't be happier. I wish I had more room for a 2nd sub, but there just isn't the space. We are talking about finishing the basement and turning it into an entertainment area. That would be a much bigger space and I might be able to put the towers back in play if that happens.
 

srrxr71

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This was my experience too. I bought a house with my girlfriend just before COVID and found myself with less room for gear. The towers were just too much for the room, which has to function as a living room and not just a music room. I never thought I'd be happy with bookshelves and a sub, but started trolling here and figured I'd give it a shot. I couldn't be happier. I wish I had more room for a 2nd sub, but there just isn't the space. We are talking about finishing the basement and turning it into an entertainment area. That would be a much bigger space and I might be able to put the towers back in play if that happens.
Well that space that is taken up by the stands could be used for a putting in a woofer. Perhaps something like LS60. Not end game for SPL but excellent product. You might not need that second sub so much.

Basement would be awesome. From experience run a sub in there and check for weak walls and resonance. Maybe even MLV line the walls and ceiling (at least the ceiling to avoid disturbing family during late night listening escapades).

Then plan out some room treatments with GIK.

You will be in heaven. You won’t want to leave the space.
 

Petroman

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Bookshelf speakers probably don't go low enough to guarantee the full musical experience, but good floorstanding speakers with large woofers are my favorite thing in listening to music, the sub to really make the sound better has to be obsessively integrated, carefully positioned and meticulously adjusted. Too much flutter for me. I think I would live serenely with klipsch rp8000f with double 8 woofer without going crazy.
I have RP8000f without a sub initially thinking the same. I use them for stereo listening only. However, there was something missing. Bought a (one) matching SPL120 sub and it filled in the lows nicely. Can't go back now. The trick with subs is how to correctly set up so that it won't interfere with your speakers. The placement and well as setting the sub's crossover and volume are very important.
 

goat76

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I have RP8000f without a sub initially thinking the same. I use them for stereo listening only. However, there was something missing. Bought a (one) matching SPL120 sub and it filled in the lows nicely. Can't go back now. The trick with subs is how to correctly set up so that it won't interfere with your speakers. The placement and well as setting the sub's crossover and volume are very important.

If someone prefers their sound system without the lowest bass, they either have an integration problem or a room problem. If those two problems are dealt with properly, everyone will prefer the full-range sound.

It’s really hard to get those two things right.
 
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srrxr71

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If someone prefers their sound system without the lowest bass, they either have an integration problem or a room problem. If those two problems are dealt with properl, everyone will prefer the full-range sound.

It’s really hard to get those two things right.
Certainly everyone will prefer it. By how much and is it worth the additional cost and effort? Hard to say.
 

levimax

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Certainly everyone will prefer it. By how much and is it worth the additional cost and effort? Hard to say.
With streaming, modern electronics, and modern compact speakers is it pretty easy and inexpensive to get near SOTA performance above 100 Hz. At that point pretty much the only audible improvement possible is going to be working on below 100 Hz and room integration. It won't do any good to lower the SINAD of the electronics or try any snake oil accessories. So if you want to improve things spending time and money on LF is you best investment. Whether worth it or not is an individual preference.
 

srrxr71

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With streaming, modern electronics, and modern compact speakers is it pretty easy and inexpensive to get near SOTA performance above 100 Hz. At that point pretty much the only audible improvement possible is going to be working on below 100 Hz and room integration. It won't do any good to lower the SINAD of the electronics or try any snake oil accessories. So if you want to improve things spending time and money on LF is you best investment. Whether worth it or not is an individual preference.
Agreed and after $10k of room treatment and $18k woofer system i’m happy. I was also happy with what I had before just now i’m more happy. About 10% more.

The costs go up exponentially. So it’s worth considering being happy with what one has and do nothing. Just a consideration.

Edit: I’d like to add. You’re adding significant energy to your system. Meaning your room, walls, stuff everything. You’d be surprised which things start to vibrate and resonate when you add that energy to your system. Unless you can properly control that energy the bass will likely be less clean than without that energy. So it’s not just adding bass energy that’s important it’s also properly controlling it. So you have exponentially increasing cost in terms of energy you need to expend and also in terms of controlling that extra energy.

A lot of people forgo all of it. I don’t blame them. It’s the age old audiophile compromise.
 
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sarumbear

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Agreed and after $10k of room treatment and $18k woofer system i’m happy.
That’s a lot of money for room treatment? How large is the room?

Also, how many subwoofers are there?
 

srrxr71

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That’s a lot of money for room treatment? How large is the room?

Also, how many subwoofers are there?
The room is 18x35’. The listening portion of the room is 17x18’. My sofa position less than halves the room into 17x8’.

The woofers are w371. No subs.
 
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