Restarting from scratch, audio setup in a small room.

[Tangband]

I’m in the process of deciding on a new system from the ground up that I’ll be be happy with. Budget 3-$4k. Much less would be great as well.

Currently have a dedicated music room that houses my vinyl collection and a Yamaha piano in the back corner. Sources are a Rega P6 w Ania cart and a squeezebox touch. Measurements of room are 11W x 14L x 9H. Perhaps considered “small”. I have built 24”x48”x4” acoustic panels from yellow rigid Roxul in a wooden frame, installed behind and to the side. The room’s “reverb time”(?) is around 0.35 that I’ve measured. So not particularly bad reflection wise. I’ve tried a few speakers with a Yamaha A-S1200 and couldn’t get the sound where I wanted it. Actually found the bass response far weaker in the 1200 than the old Yamaha AX592 I owned. Speakers I have tried are Focal Aria 926 and Wharfedale Linton. So I’ve sold the lot except for the Lintons and looking for something that works in this room. I suspect higher power amp with revealing bookshelves that will dig low.

Considering Monitor Audio silver 100, B&W 600 range, maybe the Focal Chora if it has better bass. Sonus Faber Lumina. Or Revel concerta 2. Again my worry is bass to balance the highs. Once the speaker is decided I’ll find an amp to compliment it.

Certainly my amplifier is an old Harman Kardon AVR110 receiver. It’s fine, and not day and night with the as1200 honestly. But it will be switched out at some point.

I listen to rock mostly so I like the rhythm and punch and good fidelity for everything else for artists like like John Prine etc, or my hi-res files. I enjoy good low end but not interested in a rolled off laid back system.

Thanks if you made it all the way though and have any suggestions.

Two Genelec 8030c + two Genelec 7050c are my advice . Or two 8330 SAM and two 7350 SAM . Buy two 60-70 cm high loudspeakerstands.
Ditch your amplifier and get a Topping D10 balanced to your computer as a source and preamp.
Get an Apple computer with Apple high resolution or use TIDAL with a PC. Dont cheat on the source material = dont use lossy spotify or bluetooth.

 

[hex168]

No disagreement with the Sierra LXs having objectively excellent performance, but so do the BMRs:

Philharmonic BMR Mini-Monitor (v2) Review

Philharmonic BMR Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Philharmonic Audio BMR Philharmonitor Bookshelf Speaker Review

Philharmonic Audio's BMR Philharmonitors use a 3-way design with a very special driver outlay that has audio enthusiasts excited about the potential performance advantages that it could offer Read on.

www.audioholics.com

It may come down to preference regarding wide vs medium directivity.

 

[anotherhobby]

The 2nd sub has marginal utility if there's only one primary listening position.

This is simply not true.

EDIT: Graphs...

Here is my living room. 1 sub vs 2.

In my office, one sub vs 2 on the Left channel:

In my office, one sub vs 2 on the Right channel:

I have more examples also, but I'll stop here. This is not "marginal utility" you are seeing. These are big differences.

 

[Tangband]

The 2nd sub has marginal utility if there's only one primary listening position.

Not true. One subwoofer is always a sound compromise, unless you cross over very low in frequency, as shown by anotherhobby.
Even If you eq the single subwoofer , you must cross it lower in frequency than you need to do with two subs.

 

[Marc v E]

I’m in the process of deciding on a new system from the ground up that I’ll be be happy with. Budget 3-$4k. Much less would be great as well.

Currently have a dedicated music room that houses my vinyl collection and a Yamaha piano in the back corner. Sources are a Rega P6 w Ania cart and a squeezebox touch. Measurements of room are 11W x 14L x 9H. Perhaps considered “small”. I have built 24”x48”x4” acoustic panels from yellow rigid Roxul in a wooden frame, installed behind and to the side. The room’s “reverb time”(?) is around 0.35 that I’ve measured. So not particularly bad reflection wise. I’ve tried a few speakers with a Yamaha A-S1200 and couldn’t get the sound where I wanted it. Actually found the bass response far weaker in the 1200 than the old Yamaha AX592 I owned. Speakers I have tried are Focal Aria 926 and Wharfedale Linton. So I’ve sold the lot except for the Lintons and looking for something that works in this room. I suspect higher power amp with revealing bookshelves that will dig low.

Considering Monitor Audio silver 100, B&W 600 range, maybe the Focal Chora if it has better bass. Sonus Faber Lumina. Or Revel concerta 2. Again my worry is bass to balance the highs. Once the speaker is decided I’ll find an amp to compliment it.

Certainly my amplifier is an old Harman Kardon AVR110 receiver. It’s fine, and not day and night with the as1200 honestly. But it will be switched out at some point.

I listen to rock mostly so I like the rhythm and punch and good fidelity for everything else for artists like like John Prine etc, or my hi-res files. I enjoy good low end but not interested in a rolled off laid back system.

Thanks if you made it all the way though and have any suggestions.

I have the Genelec 8030, which I enjoy on a daily basis. Heard the 8351, which are stunning. Basically if I were in the market for speaker there would be no doubt where to look for a satisfying solution.

The tricky part is which speakers of the range: the 80xx series which don't have eq, the 83xx series which do have eq for room compensation or the coaxial 83x1 series named The Ones (no kidding). I think it's best that you listen for yourself where the sweet spot lies for you. Adding a sub and eq (named GLM kit) is what I would recommend as a starting point.

 

[srrxr71]

I’m in Canada, sorry I should have noted that in the initial post.

How lucky. I got word about dealers in Canada offering Genelecs at prices I could only dream of in USA.

 

[srrxr71]

The 2nd sub has marginal utility if there's only one primary listening position.

Depends. If your sub is centered in front of you then maybe yes. If not 2 subs really matters speaking from experience.

 

[dshreter]

I just noticed the “each”. Yes, they would be out of my price range unfortunately. I was thinking for the pair.

Keep in mind that covers speakers and amplification, and they work well without a sub.

You can get nickel and dimed spending hundreds on amps, room correction, subwoofers…. and you’re still going to reach your budget very quickly with speakers a significant tier below the KH150. I would plow your money into the most important component (speakers), and then add things like room correction or subs later on if you feel you need to, but your foundation will still be solid.

The equivalent from Genelec would also be very good, it comes down to preference.

 

[NiagaraPete]

The 2nd sub has marginal utility if there's only one primary listening position.

Okay I agree but if you buy a speaker with a 8"+ driver you can get full range and still get some thump. Subs are great if you need sub bass for movies but really for music. Not so much.

 

[hifi72]

I have the Genelec 8030, which I enjoy on a daily basis. Heard the 8351, which are stunning. Basically if I were in the market for speaker there would be no doubt where to look for a satisfying solution.

The tricky part is which speakers of the range: the 80xx series which don't have eq, the 83xx series which do have eq for room compensation or the coaxial 83x1 series named The Ones (no kidding). I think it's best that you listen for yourself where the sweet spot lies for you. Adding a sub and eq (named SAM) is what I would recommend as a starting point.

I see the 8030 in stock locally for $879 CDN each. Pretty good price considering all the other options I've been looking at. 8351B is way out of my ballpark over $5k per.

 

[Marc v E]

I see the 8030 in stock locally for $879 CDN each. Pretty good price considering all the other options I've been looking at. 8351B is way out of my ballpark over $5k per.

Make sure you listen to the 8330 (or its bigger brothers the 8340 or 8350). These have eq for room compensation. I have the 8030, but if I would change anything, it's eq. In the 83xx models you have this. You only need a 300 dollar device (GLM kit) to have an automated room eq.

Btw the 8320 tested better than the 8330 on this site. Experimenting with speaker size and subwoofers (and asking advice for your room size and desired spl) should get you what you aim for.

 

[LightninBoy]

This is simply not true.

EDIT: Graphs...

Here is my living room. 1 sub vs 2.

View attachment 251771
In my office, one sub vs 2 on the Left channel:

View attachment 251773

In my office, one sub vs 2 on the Right channel:

View attachment 251774

I have more examples also, but I'll stop here. This is not "marginal utility" you are seeing. These are big differences.

Ok, I'm going from my own experience of getting reasonably flat frequency response in in two different small rooms with one sub at one listening position. Other listening positions are whacked, of course.

But your graphs may change my mind. However, are these graphs generated by simply turning off one sub after you've optimized the system for two subs, or are they actually graphs where you've optimized the parameters (placement, phase, levels and eq) in one case for one sub and another case optimized the parameters for two subs?

 

[Chrispy]

Scotch or scratch?

 

[LightninBoy]

Not true. One subwoofer is always a sound compromise, unless you cross over very low in frequency, as shown by anotherhobby.
Even If you eq the single subwoofer , you must cross it lower in frequency than you need to do with two subs.

Well, we agree on there being a compromise. Saying "marginal utility" does acknowledge a compromise. Just not a big one. However, I have no idea how having two subs would increase the crossover frequency versus one. Are you implying that you would raise the crossover frequency above 80hz (where the frequencies start to be locatable) and then place each sub under each main?

 

[Trell]

This would be my pick, or Genelec 8050 or better 8350+GLM.

For Genelec I would choose the 8350+GLM Kit for the builtin room EQ.

The Neumann KH 150 also packs a punch and one can use the MA-1 for room EQ without needing a Neumann subwoofer.

 

[Trell]

Btw the 8320 tested better than the 8330 on this site.

But the 8320 is quite tiny with its small 4 1/8 inch woofer. I wouldn’t use it unless in near field and preferably with a subwoofer.

 

[bodhi]

For Genelec I would choose the 8350+GLM Kit for the builtin room EQ.

+1 as those are close to endgame and upgrade path is clear (a sub).

Still, there is some low end detail missing with 8350. I'm comparing them daily against Kef setup with dual Kf92 subs and with certain tracks the difference is very noticeable. But it's not like there is something wrong with 8350 sound, more like the subs add a bit of spice on top.

But it's the same with almost any bigger speaker, they almost get there but not quite and it's personal preference whether or not it's an issue.

 

[anotherhobby]

Ok, I'm going from my own experience of getting reasonably flat frequency response in in two different small rooms with one sub at one listening position. Other listening positions are whacked, of course.

But your graphs may change my mind. However, are these graphs generated by simply turning off one sub after you've optimized the system for two subs, or are they actually graphs where you've optimized the parameters (placement, phase, levels and eq) in one case for one sub and another case optimized the parameters for two subs?

The top graph I showed comparing 1 vs 2 subs were both fully Audyssey calibrated and optimized JL Audio 112's in my living room. The next two graphs show native (NOT calibrated) room response of one sub vs two with an 80 Hz crossover in my small office. Think of these graphs as "this is what needs to be calibrated," and you can tell by looking at them that there is FAR less to fix with EQ, and they will should be able to provide a reasonably flat response with calibration whereas the single sub would have some pretty big dips in the response. They also show the exact gain you get with additional subs, which is a big deal with my little 8" subs and their limited output. In my mind these graphs are more telling than the first graph since they don't have DSP magic involved other than the crossover. I have dual 8" subs in my office, and those measurements confirmed for me that I want to add two more.

 

[Marc v E]

The top graph I showed comparing 1 vs 2 subs were both fully Audyssey calibrated and optimized JL Audio 112's in my living room. The next two graphs show native (calibrated) room response of one sub vs two with an 80 Hz crossover in my small office. Think of these graphs as "this is what needs to be calibrated," and you can tell by looking at them that there is FAR less to fix with EQ, and they will definitely be able to provide a totally flat response with calibration. They also show the exact gain you get with additional subs, which is a big deal with my little 8" subs with their limited output. In my mind these graphs are more telling than the first graph since they don't have DSP magic involved other than the crossover. I have dual 8" subs in my office, and those measurement confirmed for me that I want to add two more.

Interesting. I'm still learning but iirc Amir posted a video on the benefit of multiple subs. For what it's worth, since my speakers already contain a 10 inch woofer each, to get any improvement my startpoint would be adding a 12 inch sub. Right?

 

[Deleted member 35357]

Make sure you listen to the 8330 (or its bigger brothers the 8340 or 8350). These have eq for room compensation. I have the 8030, but if I would change anything, it's eq. In the 83xx models you have this. You only need a 300 dollar device (GLM kit) to have an automated room eq.

Btw the 8320 tested better than the 8330 on this site. Experimenting with speaker size and subwoofers (and asking advice for your room size and desired spl) should get you what you aim for.

Buying a miniDSP 2x4 Flex or something becomes cheaper the higher tier you go with Genelec. GLM adds much more costs at the higher tier speakers.
You can use their 8000 series and go external DSP for cheaper if you start looking at the 8330 and above.