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Lithium Ion car jumper advice?

Headphonaholic

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So I realize this isn't remotely related audio but there is so much engineering talent on this forum I figured it might be worth the post, though if it's too off topic I understand.

Winter is in full swing where I live and both my girlfriends car and mine have been having issues starting. I've owned one of these jumpers for years now and I swear by it. However a coworker of mine has a lithium ion jump starter that I've seen used 3 times and it's from factor is appealing.

I've started researching them since I wouldn't mind the convenience of the smaller form factor. All the same I know that lithium ion batteries don't react well to extreme temperatures. I've read a bunch of bad reviews of the exact model my coworker has but they are outnumbered by the vast number of positive reviews.

So my question to the ASR community is do any of you have experience with these kind of jump starters? Additionally from those with technical backgrounds, are these devices inherently a bad idea? Recommendations and any advice is welcome :)
 

Blumlein 88

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I've not used one of these. They look attractive for size and weight. I think the issue is if you charge a lithium battery to 100% and store it, then it tends to swell and eventually ruin the battery or start a fire if it shorts out. The issue with cold is you have less capacity. I think by 32 degrees F you are down by 20%. Now that by itself wouldn't be a big deal if the capacity is enough. It gets worse as it gets colder and how important that is will depend upon the lowest temps you'll see. It can be as low as 50% of normal full charge at 0 degrees F.

So if you had excess capacity and only charged to 80% of the 0 degree charge capability then you might have something that would work fine. But all your competitors are going to advertise charge amounts and amperage rates at higher temperatures and 100% capacity and no one will buy your device. So it would be possible to make a good device I just don't know if anyone has. Perhaps after a thousand companies make a lousy one someone will make one the right way and get a reputation for being worthwhile.

So the safer approach now is to use the old style larger heavier sealed lead acid jump boxes. Some of those can be opened and the sealed batteries inside are what UPS devices use so they can be replenished every few years.
 

DHMC

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Do you know you could test your battery with a multimeter?

I would rather get one of this from ebay and determine when it is time for a new battery.
 

amirm

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I bought one of the lithium ones and is junk. When the battery is really dead, it doesn't do anything. It has some boost switch but heaven knows what logic it uses for it to work. Heck, I could not even jump start my mower with it! On top of that the cords were too short to reach the terminals.

This category is like toasters: makers think the cheaper they make them, the better. It is impossible to know which is a quality one. They all seem copycats with the same terminal at the end and junk over-rated specs.

In each instance I have had to get a regular charger and extension cord to get going again.

So if you find a good one, let me know. :)
 
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Headphonaholic

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I've not used one of these. They look attractive for size and weight. I think the issue is if you charge a lithium battery to 100% and store it, then it tends to swell and eventually ruin the battery or start a fire if it shorts out. The issue with cold is you have less capacity. I think by 32 degrees F you are down by 20%. Now that by itself wouldn't be a big deal if the capacity is enough. It gets worse as it gets colder and how important that is will depend upon the lowest temps you'll see. It can be as low as 50% of normal full charge at 0 degrees F.

So if you had excess capacity and only charged to 80% of the 0 degree charge capability then you might have something that would work fine. But all your competitors are going to advertise charge amounts and amperage rates at higher temperatures and 100% capacity and no one will buy your device. So it would be possible to make a good device I just don't know if anyone has. Perhaps after a thousand companies make a lousy one someone will make one the right way and get a reputation for being worthwhile.

So the safer approach now is to use the old style larger heavier sealed lead acid jump boxes. Some of those can be opened and the sealed batteries inside are what UPS devices use so they can be replenished every few years.
Interesting, thank you for those insights!

So a full charge of a lithium battery stored over time causes the swelling? I had no idea... There are definitely reviews where people describe them catching fire or exploding which is my major hesitation.

I live in upstate NY and we don't typically go below 0 degrees F but it was 18 yesterday. It's also not uncommon for it to be below 10 frequently. So that would mean a pretty significant reduction in capacity. I would probably want to go for one with larger capacities to offset this then.

I understand why they offer ratings at higher temps but the reality is most people like myself want to leave these in our cars for emergencies so it is very misleading. They all appear to be basically the same, I wouldn't be surprised if they were all made in the same factory just with different outsides and packaging.

Do you know you could test your battery with a multimeter?

I would rather get one of this from ebay and determine when it is time for a new battery.
I am aware, and the batteries in our cars are likely original factory ones so judging by the age of the cars we have I can assume they are nearing the end of their life since car batteries tend to last between 4-6 years depending on the conditions. The real issue is that we live close to work and in general don't drive far when we do drive places. So our modern cars full of electronics don't get a lot of opportunity to charge up. Additionally, the point of these jumpers is for emergencies, since there are many reasons your car battery can go dead on you and you aren't always going to be ready for it.

I bought one of the lithium ones and is junk. When the battery is really dead, it doesn't do anything. It has some boost switch but heaven knows what logic it uses for it to work. Heck, I could not even jump start my mower with it! On top of that the cords were too short to reach the terminals.

This category is like toasters: makers think the cheaper they make them, the better. It is impossible to know which is a quality one. They all seem copycats with the same terminal at the end and junk over-rated specs.

In each instance I have had to get a regular charger and extension cord to get going again.

So if you find a good one, let me know. :)
I've read of people having that issue actually, it's related to the safety mechanism to ensure the polarity is right. If the battery is fully dead it can't determine the polarity so it doesn't work. Some have a way to override the safety feature.

You are 100% right! They appear all the same, it makes shopping for them impossible. Amazon reviews are largely useless since most people just say "it works!" but under what conditions? Ultimately if it doesn't jump things in the cold it's useless to me. The specs are without a doubt useless and the build quality is bad. The number of reviews I've seen of the alligator clips breaking or wires smoking due to the insufficient gauge of the wire used doesn't fill me with hope for these products.

I'll keep everyone posted if I do get a good one. This one by Rugged Geek is the one my coworker owns. It seems to work well. The jumpstarter I linked in my original post works great but it's a lead acid one, so big and heavy. If you don't care about the bulk it's a winner! But yeah the hunt continues for the compact ones!
 
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Headphonaholic

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I found this guy that does a really thorough review of several jump starters and the results are a bit unsettling but also expected. Wish more people would do reviews like this... maybe when Amir gets bored of audio stuff :p

His site with the results for those that don't want to hear him explain everything.

 

invaderzim

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If you live where it gets hot check for how high of temperatures they are rated for handling while being stored in the car.

I hadn't thought of the polarity check and a completely dead battery problem, that is an interesting one.

I once had an alternator repair guy tell me that if you can possibly avoid it don't use your car to charge a completely dead battery. Granted there are times when you don't have a choice but the alternator and charging system is designed to power the car and maintain the charge on the battery and charging a battery from dead can put quite a load on the charging system.
 
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Headphonaholic

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If you live where it gets hot check for how high of temperatures they are rated for handling while being stored in the car.

I hadn't thought of the polarity check and a completely dead battery problem, that is an interesting one.

I once had an alternator repair guy tell me that if you can possibly avoid it don't use your car to charge a completely dead battery. Granted there are times when you don't have a choice but the alternator and charging system is designed to power the car and maintain the charge on the battery and charging a battery from dead can put quite a load on the charging system.
Yeah that is an excellent point. The heat handling is a concern as well since lithium batteries don't like the heat for sure (aka they explode). I would probably avoid leaving it in the car during the summer for that reason, which granted defeats part of the purpose of it I know. Ideally I could leave it in all year round, just not sure if it's worth the risk...

That makes sense, I have to imagine a dead battery puts a big strain on the alternator. I generally take the battery out and bring it into the apartment for charging if it fails to start multiple days in a row with no sign of recovering. That is good advice though.
 

Blumlein 88

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If you live where it gets hot check for how high of temperatures they are rated for handling while being stored in the car.

I hadn't thought of the polarity check and a completely dead battery problem, that is an interesting one.

I once had an alternator repair guy tell me that if you can possibly avoid it don't use your car to charge a completely dead battery. Granted there are times when you don't have a choice but the alternator and charging system is designed to power the car and maintain the charge on the battery and charging a battery from dead can put quite a load on the charging system.
Among other reasons, batteries have the plates so closely spaced these days that it isn't uncommon to have plates shorted or nearly shorting. So they would load too much onto another car's alternator and also probably not charge up right anyway. If the battery is suddenly dead for no reason it could be the plates are near shorting and killed it.
 

Blumlein 88

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Interesting, thank you for those insights!

So a full charge of a lithium battery stored over time causes the swelling? I had no idea... There are definitely reviews where people describe them catching fire or exploding which is my major hesitation.

Yes managing lithium batteries can greatly extend their life. Don't charge over 80%, don't discharge below 20%. Charging to 100% is okay if you immediately start using the battery to draw off the charge and don't let it over-heat during the time between 80-100% of charging.

Tesla cars manage the battery charging extensively. They have different modes. Suggesting you only charge it to 80% for daily normal use. Or use a trip mode for 100% charging just before going on an extended trip. They start tapering down the charge rate as the go from 80 to 100%.

You can get battery management apps for your phone like Accubattery or a number of others. They'll monitor your charging and keep it to 80%. They also will use an algorithm to estimate lost battery life from constant charging to 100%. When most phones would let you replace the battery that wasn't a big deal. Now with so many phones being sealed it is a bit more important.
 

RayDunzl

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If the battery is suddenly dead for no reason it could be the plates are near shorting and killed it.

While traveling for work, on July 4th 1985 or so, and taking a roundabout way toward my next destination, I stopped to eat in Ten Sleep, Wyoming.

Coming out of the eatery, saw smoke/steam rising from the hood.

Found the battery bubbling and gurgling.

Tried to start the car, it did, and drove to the town's only service station.

Told the attendant I needed a new battery.

He said something like "I don't work here."

After a half-hour of searching the whole place we finally located 3 in a glass display in the front window (duh). One would fit so I bought it.

During the replacement work, I saw "something" on the top of the old battery. Maybe a year before I had unscrewed the caps to check/top the water levels using a penny, and absent-mindedly left it sitting on the top of the battery. A little humidity/battery fumes/road grit had allowed the penny to partially dissolve and its metal ions to somehow migrate into the battery cells.

Not recommended.
 
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Headphonaholic

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Yes managing lithium batteries can greatly extend their life. Don't charge over 80%, don't discharge below 20%. Charging to 100% is okay if you immediately start using the battery to draw off the charge and don't let it over-heat during the time between 80-100% of charging.

Tesla cars manage the battery charging extensively. They have different modes. Suggesting you only charge it to 80% for daily normal use. Or use a trip mode for 100% charging just before going on an extended trip. They start tapering down the charge rate as the go from 80 to 100%.

You can get battery management apps for your phone like Accubattery or a number of others. They'll monitor your charging and keep it to 80%. They also will use an algorithm to estimate lost battery life from constant charging to 100%. When most phones would let you replace the battery that wasn't a big deal. Now with so many phones being sealed it is a bit more important.
Wish I knew this when I was in the rc helicopter hobby! Probably would have saved me a few batteries. And I definitely charge my phones to 100% every day... I've gone and installed that Accubattery app and it's really nice. Also upgraded it to the pro version. I'm gonna try to be better with my phones.

The thing that is confusing to me is that if this is such a major issue, why not include some logic to prevent discharge under 20% and a charge over 80% and then if you can, just upgrade the battery to make up for lost capacity? You would be able to advertise improved battery longevity, which I would imagine people would want? Eh who am I kidding, people just want battery life and then to toss out the device a year from now for the new model...

Thank you for a very informative post :)

I do have a question for you though. When using any jump box, what is the recommended time to wait after hooking it up to start the car? Some people say to give it anywhere up to 30 seconds, others say start it right away. Is it possible that starting it right away has an increased chance of overloading the jumpbox and in the case of the lithium battery ones causing failure?


The money shot:

Teardown of a common brand:

I've seen several videos of random cheap jump boxes expanding or smoking. It's pretty terrifying. Also shocking that products like that can be sold with little to no standards considering the amount of harm they can do. What's worse is that 99% of reviews out there don't actually validate claims of the products or test safety features. It's a complete gamble buying one of these.

With that said I've gone and rolled the dice on the Noco GB40 last night. I already own a Noco Genius battery charger that is nice, so why not stick with the brand I can trust, at least better than the random chinese ones. I'm gonna follow Blumlein 88's advice on charging it to hopefully avoid any issues. It seemed to be one of the safer ones from that reviews I watched. It'll be arriving saturday so I'll post an update on how it works. I'm intentionally not charging up my cars battery so I can give it a proper test right away.
 

amirm

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The thing that is confusing to me is that if this is such a major issue, why not include some logic to prevent discharge under 20% and a charge over 80% and then if you can, just upgrade the battery to make up for lost capacity?
Because battery life is everything in portable products from marketing point of view. So they maximize their use especially in mass market products like phones.

BTW, there is not a lot of good data out there on such things. Battery chemistry is is very complex and not even the companies that make them know all about their intricacies. Connection between chemistry and electrical performance can be quite fuzzy at times.

I have converted my RV van to Lithium and I fully charge them. The extra 20% capacity can be very useful in actual practice. If that shortens their life, so be it. It is a "consumable" in that regard.

One thing that is reliable data is that if you don't discharge the batteries too much, they last a ton longer. If you fully discharge the cells, you may get 500 cycles. But if you discharge them just 10%, you may get 5,000 cycles! So personally I keep my phone charged up all the time.

Finally, Samsung in their batteries since the fire issues, has put in extra margin so after two years, they are supposed to maintain something like 90% of their capacity.
 
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Headphonaholic

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Because battery life is everything in portable products from marketing point of view. So they maximize their use especially in mass market products like phones.
Absolutely! I guess I'm just disappointed from a consumer standpoint. I just hate that products are designed to maximize profit and not performance. Battery life is important to me but I also don't want to have to replace a perfectly good device so soon because it doesn't have protections to increase it's longevity (or have replaceable batteries!). Heck, why not give me the choice? Give me a setting I can toggle that will protect the battery for me! That can't be too much to ask for right?

I don't doubt that the performance is hard to measure with batteries since there are so many variables that can effect their performance. I just think some information need to be published about the conditions under which the specs are measured. Car batteries usually have 2 different ratings, cranking amps and cold cranking amps. These jump starters should have similar specs.

At the end of the day we need more people like you Amir that tests these products properly! The video I had posted further up, the guy tested 7 jump starters if I remember correctly? 3 were severe safety hazards, but the company's touted how much safer they are than the competition which was completely false.

I have a company phone that is an Samsung S9+. I've had it for probably 6 months or so and the Accubattery Pro app says it's at 91% health. I don't quick charge my phones either since that will most certainly destroy the battery with time. Though I do use an Anker usb charging hub and I'm not sure if the S9 quick charges off it or not. My Oneplus 3T only seems to quick charge off it's special wall plug.
 

Blumlein 88

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My current phone and my last phone would warn you when you reach 15% charge. You could set battery modes one of which would severely reduce processor speed and other activities once 15% was reached. My prior phone was one of the first with super quick USB C charging. They got a rep for short battery life. The newer one charges rapidly, but at only about 2/3's the rate so I think battery care is part of the reason.

The thin-ness craze. The batteries in phones are so thin, and the phone case so thin if I put a protective cover on it nearly doubles the thickness. I'd easily accept a 1 mm thicker phone for 60% more battery capacity.

As for how long to connect a jump box before using I don't know. I always connect and start. If the battery in car were very dead I suppose letting the jump box partly recharge it a few minutes might be helpful. But you are also taking charge away from the jump box. I live where it doesn't get very cold, but I've heard of people saying with lead acid batteries in extreme cold, it helps to turn on parking lights only for 5 minutes before starting. The idea being it gets current flowing in the right direction on the plates and lets you pull maximum amps from it for starting. I've seen tests of this by reputable people showing a minor increase in starting capability.
 

Don Hills

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My new laptop (Lenovo), in common with many new devices, has a non-replaceable battery. It has a power mode for cases where it will be almost exclusively run on mains power. It charges the battery only to 55-60%, which is optimum for long life storage of a lithium-ion battery. I'm no chemist, but it has to do with balancing the chemical makeup of the plates or something.
 
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So I received my Noco Genius GB40 last weekend and I didn't get a chance actually use it since the weather warmed up a bit and my car still could start. However the other night I was running between stores and I did need to use it and it worked flawlessly. Now I will also point out that it was 32 F outside, so the jumper was probably around that. Not exactly an ideal stress test. I had actually tossed it into my freezer for a bit when I first got it to do a proper test but as mentioned earlier my car could start without it. Oh and I also charged it above 75% but less than 100%, not sure exactly how much.

The GB40 feels sturdy, which is good since I managed to have it fall out of my pocket onto a hardwood floor shortly after taking it out of the packaging. Noco has a consistent design language which I noticed immediately considering my charger is a Noco Genius G3500. I like that it doesn't have all the extra stuff many others on the market have. The cables are short but of thicker gauge, which is great to see in a product that will be jumping a car. The alligator clamps are big and feel sturdy. It is very simple and easy to use. I was planning on leaving it in my girlfriends car so ease of use and safety is a must.

Overall so far I am satisfied with this product. I'll continue to update this thread if anything new happens involving the Noco GB40. Winter is far from over so I'm sure I'll have more chances to use it :)

The thin-ness craze. The batteries in phones are so thin, and the phone case so thin if I put a protective cover on it nearly doubles the thickness. I'd easily accept a 1 mm thicker phone for 60% more battery capacity.
I 100% agree. Though honestly, I would pay extra to have a replaceable battery. I remember replacing a bloated battery on my HTC Evo like a year after I had it. Nowadays you are expected to throw the phone out and get a new one...

As for how long to connect a jump box before using I don't know. I always connect and start. If the battery in car were very dead I suppose letting the jump box partly recharge it a few minutes might be helpful. But you are also taking charge away from the jump box. I live where it doesn't get very cold, but I've heard of people saying with lead acid batteries in extreme cold, it helps to turn on parking lights only for 5 minutes before starting. The idea being it gets current flowing in the right direction on the plates and lets you pull maximum amps from it for starting. I've seen tests of this by reputable people showing a minor increase in starting capability.
That is interesting, I'll keep that in mind. The instructions that came with the GB40 basically say what you do, to try it and if it doesn't work to wait a minute (iirc) before trying again.

My new laptop (Lenovo), in common with many new devices, has a non-replaceable battery. It has a power mode for cases where it will be almost exclusively run on mains power. It charges the battery only to 55-60%, which is optimum for long life storage of a lithium-ion battery. I'm no chemist, but it has to do with balancing the chemical makeup of the plates or something.
Huh, I'll have to check my laptop. I have a second or third gen Dell XPS 13, so I would imagine it probably has something like what you describe in the dell software. Sounds like a good thing to make use of.
 
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Headphonaholic

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Just wanted to make a follow up post to report on the GB40's performance thus far. Over the weekend I got about 2 feet of snow where I live... that was fun. It also has been in the teens and single digits (Fahrenheit) for a bit now. Yesterday and a bit of today it was even below 0. Since I got the GB40 and gave it the initial 75% charge I have probably used it in the neighborhood of 20-30 times. It wasn't until after using it to move my car and my gf's car on Sunday that I had to actually give it another charge.

I am very pleased with the performance of this device. I have not needed to resort to my full size lead acid battery jumper. There have been a few times my car would stall shortly after starting it and it kept jumping each time. The only times it's struggled a bit to start the car was when it was at about 50% charge and when it's been under 10 degrees, but again it has always started the car. Has the cars been 100% dead? No, the batteries usually have enough charge for the lights and stuff but not to start the car. I'll also point out that my car has a 3 liter 6 cylinder turbo'd engine and my gf's car a 2.4 liter 4 cylinder engine.

So yeah I think I would recommend the GB40, but probably with the caveat that you should be mindful of how much you charge it, since lithium ion batteries are sensitive, and probably to avoid leaving it in a very hot car in the summer.
 

Ron Texas

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You can't beat a cheap pair of cables and another car which is running.
 
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