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Standardized mental techniques / training for better listening?

JSmith

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I'd love to collect links to any free resources on becoming a "trained listener" - possibly such a thread already exists.



JSmith
 

lisgotan

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But going back to the audiophool phenomenon, people can experience $1000+ "worth" of audible improvement from something like an AC filter that literally does nothing. I would say being happy about spending $1000 demands a relatively significant improvement. And they hear it - they really do hear it.

But we now know for certain that it's their minds producing the improvement, not the AC filter. So there must be some shortcut to having that experience without spending the $1000.

So I say... what more can we do to get our minds working like that? It might be interesting to run some casual experiments on this. Say we try repeating some kind of mantra before turning on the music, like "Today my system sounds better than it ever has before. My ears hear better than ever before..." and then rate our subjective experiences from 1 to 10.

It sounds dumb, but so does the placebo effect, and it's single-handedly keeping PS Audio and many others in business, so...

I would prefer to leave this out.
 

JSmith

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So there must be some shortcut to having that experience without spending the $1000.
Well I think there is... but it depends on the persons mindset. Just knowing a device measures transparently tends to work for me for example... veils can be lifted. ;)


JSmith
 

lisgotan

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Well I think there is... but it depends on the persons mindset. Just knowing a device measures transparently tends to work for me for example... veils can be lifted. ;)


JSmith

Haha definitely with real life examples.... I am dead sure we have seen people listening to music through speakers of their smart phones. earphones bundled with their phones. We have even seen some using $20-30 USB powered speakers connected to their PCs.... They play games, listen to music, watch movies etc...

Never seen any in agony using these devices to listen to their music or watching their videos/movies.

I will mention again and again that its the content thats the real focus. It doesn't matter what gear a person is using, if the content is not what the person wants, then quality of the sound have little effect on the person's level of enjoyment. IF the person dislike the song and/or the singer, even the best gear on this planet is not going to make him/her enjoy the song.
 
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kemmler3D

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I will mention again and again that its the content thats the real focus. It doesn't matter what gear a person is using, if the content is not what the person wants, then quality of the sound have little effect on the person's level of enjoyment. IF the person dislike the song and/or the singer, even the best gear on this planet is not going to make him/her enjoy the song.
Yes, but ASR and pretty much all audiophile forums are content-agnostic. Whatever music you are listening to, it is always possible to hear it a little better. We are interested in sound here, the fact that the sound happens to be music is incidental ;)
 
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kemmler3D

kemmler3D

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Power of suggestion.....we need some hypnotists perhaps? Or something to get rid of the audiophool type "learning" so much of this expectation stuff is based on?
Well, it sounds silly, but yeah. If we could self-hypnotize to the extent that our systems sounded $10K better, wouldn't that be an interesting thing to try?

I don't think we can get rid of cognitive bias / power of suggestion. The placebo effect can work even when you know it's a placebo. "here, take this sugar pill" and you actually feel better. https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-know-placebo-201607079926

Given that the placebo effect seems at least as strong in audio as it does in medicine, I suggest we start giving ourselves audio-placebo on purpose. As I often say, "if it's stupid and it works, it ain't stupid".

Here's a more specific idea: The brain's selective perceptual filtering of direct vs. indirect sound is well known, massive, and extremely obvious. (make a recording in an untreated room and the bad acoustics are WAY more obvious than they are when you listen by ear.) It seems plausible that we could maybe actively influence this "circuit" to give us more of the direct, less of the indirect. Think of it as free acoustic treatment.
 

valerianf

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I have to tell a funny story.
Long time ago I went to a shop that was selling audiophile cables.
They were very tiny and sold at gold price.
The representative of this UK brand was very happy...
I met there a customer that told me spending a fortune in Hifi equipment and suddenly selling all of them.
One night, one of is friend came to his home and for sure had to listen to his Hifi system.
The guy said wait a minute, went back to his car and brought back is violin: he was a professional musician.
He plays exactly the same music as the Hifi system: the day after all the equipments were for sell.

If you want to enjoy better the music and be sharper in listening I strongly advice to take some music classes and may be playing an instrument.
Regarding the electronics equipments, we just need something sufficient that is in the reach of our financing: it is a personal choice.
 

lisgotan

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Yes, but ASR and pretty much all audiophile forums are content-agnostic. Whatever music you are listening to, it is always possible to hear it a little better. We are interested in sound here, the fact that the sound happens to be music is incidental ;)
Ok in this case, why dont you perform some listening experiments with test tones or sound that's no related to music. Then share with us your findings?

Ways to improving listening. One thing I can think of is how to train to improve listening for higher frequencies.
 

Mal

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Listen to BBC Radio 3 Building a Library, or similar programmes, where several performances of a particular piece of music are compared by an expert reviewer. They will often point out features to listen to, and point out the dates at which the music has been recorded, mono & stereo performances, etc. Even if you aren't that into classical you can learn a lot. The last two episodes would be excellent places to start for anyone - the wonderful Ravel Piano Trio and a Mozart Piano Concerto "that everyone knows". Beethven 9 next Saturday!
 

Albiepalbie

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I think we would all agree that a large part of the high-end audio industry is based on perceived (but non-physical) improvements in sound quality. The placebo effect / expectation bias is so strong that you could argue that fighting it is one of the primary purposes of this site.

Let's take a step back and remember that in a sense, the improvements are real. People actually do hear things differently when they say they hear a difference. It's just that the improvement in sound takes place in the brain-ear part of the system, instead of in a piece of gear we can measure, review, spend money on, etc.

People often spend $20K on snake oil and report back that it was well worth the money. Well, that means the brain alone can deliver +$20K in sound quality for free! It seems like upgrading our listening practices could be the best price/performance upgrade imaginable.

I know that formal listening training exists - so for starters I'd love to collect links to any free resources on becoming a "trained listener" - possibly such a thread already exists.

I'd also be curious about any studies on mental techniques that are useful and effective while listening. Lots of people hear an improvement when they close their eyes - but I imagine this is only scratching the surface. (Inb4 "just smoke some weed" - okay, we got that one out of the way too.)

The goal here is to find techniques that reliably allow us to use "imaginary" improvements in sound quality to our advantage. Think of this as an effort to get the most out of our gear by listening to it "better". If we take a scientific approach to gear, it makes sense to take a scientific approach to listening, too.

e: Mods, I am an idiot and posted this in General Audio instead of the obvious choice Psychoacoustics... please move if you see this and get a chance.
Over the years I’ve developed a listening technique to get the maximum experience from the music
I did Trancendental Meditation many years ago and use the simple physical and mental relaxation routes to get into a trance state to help towards deep Listening
This involves being in a comfortable sitting position eyes shut - relaxed breathing and concentrating on the musical lines
The music is the Mantra
The mantra is just a repeated sound / Rhythm that relaxes the brain slows breathing
Similar is in all music from Bach to Glass
Having a Whisky a spliff meal or sex works for other folk
The better the Hi-Fi setup the better the experience - better sound and more information
One amazing memorable experience was listening to a pretty basic Hi-Fi with a Guy called Billy Pigg playing the Northumberland Plpes has always stuck in my mind
Truely Trancendental
It’s not mystical - it’s deep listening
Performers must do it everyday for a living
 

Albiepalbie

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Over the years I’ve developed a listening technique to get the maximum experience from the music
I did Trancendental Meditation many years ago and use the simple physical and mental relaxation routes to get into a trance state to help towards deep Listening
This involves being in a comfortable sitting position eyes shut - relaxed breathing and concentrating on the musical lines
The music is the Mantra
The mantra is just a repeated sound / Rhythm that relaxes the brain slows breathing
Similar is in all music from Bach to Glass
Having a Whisky a spliff meal or sex works for other folk
The better the Hi-Fi setup the better the experience - better sound and more information
One amazing memorable experience was listening to a pretty basic Hi-Fi with a Guy called Billy Pigg playing the Northumberland Plpes has always stuck in my mind
Truely Trancendental
It’s not mystical - it’s deep listening
Performers must do it everyday for a living
I also use the same technique at live events
Slightly more difficult with other people around
It completely blanks out the annoying parts of being in an audience
 
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kemmler3D

kemmler3D

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Thanks for the comments, this is really what I am after with this thread. Once you "get in the zone" for lack of a better phrase, can you move on from the repetitive music to something else and stay in that frame of mind?

Example: I enter the state using Steve Reich for a mantra (I can already see how that would work) - if I then switch to Billy Joel, does it still work or does the effect dissipate?

Also: Welcome to ASR!
 

Albiepalbie

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Thanks for the comments, this is really what I am after with this thread. Once you "get in the zone" for lack of a better phrase, can you move on from the repetitive music to something else and stay in that frame of mind?

Example: I enter the state using Steve Reich for a mantra (I can already see how that would work) - if I then switch to Billy Joel, does it still work or does the effect dissipate?

Also: Welcome to ASR!
I get into the “zone “ listening to anything
What I do is a development if the TM techniques
Powerful Trancendental music - the opening of Bachs St Mathew Passion / Glasses Akhenaton / Reichs music for 18 instruments get you right into the zone but also give you a hit - deep listening and and deep physical and mental pleasure
But the physical technique works the same for all music - whatever you like - it’s not Magic it’s a process
It means you can listen to recordings you have known forever anew - every time - with a new open mind
The audio equipment I use is particular to give me this hit
Clarity abs smooth vocal production is paramount
I have only listened at home with electrostatic speakers
I have 4 pairs - Quads - 57s 63s 2905s + 63 s in surround for SACD
They all have their particular famous limitations - I definitely don’t play Bruckner on the 57s - but Townes Van Sandt is sublime
Friends are very impressed when they hear their favourite music played - but think the sound is too clinical
The DAC debate for me is won - for my listening- with the best measuring DACs in my experience
Just got the SMSL SU10 on the strength of Amirs review - love it
The noise that goes with vinyl drives me mad
So deep listening actually causes me grief in some respects
Meaning I’m perpetually chasing after the new tweak / upgrade with many stupid decisions along the way
I’m completely unscientific but love the evidence got from other people to guide me in this site
BTW - the best tweek I use is Townsend Siesmic Pods
I’ve got them under everything
Blast music as loud as you like - nothing wobbles
 

charleski

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I'm thinking more about tactics to improve our enjoyment of audio
Then I would strongly recommend avoiding any of the training programs aimed at increasing discrimination of low-level features. These make a lot of sense for professionals involved in the production of music or equipment, but are worthless for most people.
Instead, look at some training in music and composition theory. This probably has more relevance to fans of classical music (where some pieces have a significant 'academic' angle that can only be appreciated if you grasp what they're doing), but has relevance to all Western music. This is the only sort of training that might lead you to greater enjoyment of the music, rather than being able to nit-pick.

Here's a place to start:
 

Albiepalbie

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Then I would strongly recommend avoiding any of the training programs aimed at increasing discrimination of low-level features. These make a lot of sense for professionals involved in the production of music or equipment, but are worthless for most people.
Instead, look at some training in music and composition theory. This probably has more relevance to fans of classical music (where some pieces have a significant 'academic' angle that can only be appreciated if you grasp what they're doing), but has relevance to all Western music. This is the only sort of training that might lead you to greater enjoyment of the music, rather than being able to nit-pick.

Here's a place to start:
 

Albiepalbie

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Im sure all that you advocate will add to everyone’s appreciation and enjoyment - but is relatively speaking a great effort compared to what I do
What I describe in my previous posts is not an intellectual study of the mechanics of music
I don’t read music or play an instrument
My deep listening technique is simple and I’m sure open to anyone to develop their own version
Relaxing into the rhythm of the music
Your breathing following the rhythm of the music listened to
We all do it anyway - not just listening to music - reading watching a film
A bit of practice/ training allows music to take it to another level as it affects us all in a deep subconscious level
 

Albiepalbie

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Ok in this case, why dont you perform some listening experiments with test tones or sound that's no related to music. Then share with us your findings?

Ways to improving listening. One thing I can think of is how to train to improve listening for higher frequencies.
Your test tone idea I have put into practice - deep listening that is - to test discs
As a test of my system and hearing and a bit of fun
The Telurium q test disc and the Isotec test / workout - I think they call them - discs
Very exciting here and there -especially at the “de magnetising frequency range and multiple cross rythym bits
The intentional “non formed noise / music “ gets form created as my brain try’s to make sense of it
Intentional - formed music - eg a Mahler symphony jazz improvisation for instance usually has a form there to find
The difference is the conclusion reached after listening - as memory during and after listening is how we mostly experience it
The Mahler and jazz have been formed into a satisfying thing one hopes
The test discs are ultimately a tad disappointing -but because of happy accident here and there are bits of excitement- especially in the high frequencies where music doesn't usually reach
 

Mal

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... look at some training in music and composition theory...
From my experience, knowing nothing of music and composition theory, and little about TM, you can go a long way just listening.

I do often give up on modernist works, so maybe your point has some relevance in that specific (tiny) context. But I enjoy so many works without having to do heavy study of modernist composition techniques, why should I bother?

What I find rather fun is listening to different performances and determining which I prefer. For instance, this morning I listened to two performances of Ravel's piano trio. I enjoyed both very much, no music theory or TM needed, but looked for certain, very obvious features that might increase my musical pleasure. I think the listener only needs to learn how to make the kind of observations that the best classical music DJs make to a lay audience. For instance, one performance was described as "dreamier and perfumed" in the slow movements, so I looked out for that and saw what they meant. But it was also described as overpowerful in the crescendos, and I watched out and saw that. I could see the overpowering features didnt make for an easy listen, didn't lead to an easy flow, for me. The other performance, although not being as dreamy, not quite as well recorded, but didn't throw me off with over powerful fast movements and so became my preferred recording. Now I can go and listen to them in other works and have more chance of hearing more things I like better.
 

charleski

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But I enjoy so many works without having to do heavy study of modernist composition techniques, why should I bother?
:rolleyes:
straw-man.jpg


Try starting with basics, like the Circle of Fifths, a key component of Western music from the Baroque era to modern pop.
 

Albiepalbie

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Im sure all that you advocate will add to everyone’s appreciation and enjoyment - but is relatively speaking a great effort compared to what I do
What I describe in my previous posts is not an intellectual study of the mechanics of music
I don’t read music or play an instrument
My deep listening technique is simple and I’m sure open to anyone to develop their own version
Relaxing into the rhythm of the music
Your breathing following the rhythm of the music listened to
We all do it anyway - not just listening to music - reading watching a film
A bit of practice/ training allows music to take it to another level as it affects us all in a deep subconscious
 
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