Shunyata Factory Tour - and how do THESE claims hold up?

[amirm]

The part we don't know is how the brain interprets these signals and give us the perception.

You don't need to worry about that in this case. If measurements show no difference, there is nothing to interpret. In the multi-channel example you post, the signal is absolutely changing to create those effects. With power tweaks, it never does. So there is nothing to interpret.

 

[amirm]

We only know which part of the brain responsible and activities, but we don't know the exact mechanism behind it.

I pour the same drink in two different looking glasses. I assume you accept that they taste the same. Do you need to know how the brain determines what something tastes like to know that?

 

[JSmith]

I pour the same drink in two different looking glasses. I assume you accept that they taste the same. Do you need to know how the brain determines what something tastes like to know that?

Spot on... I'll have to find it, however I watched a show a few months ago where an experiment was conducted. 10 or so people were presented one at a time with 5 choices of wine and asked to rank them in terms of which they preferred. The results were amusing... as all the wine was identical.

Ah, I think this may be the one;

Catalyst: Magic and the Brain: The Science of Illusion

Lily Serna explores the strange world of sensory perception, using magic and illusions to reveal the difference between how we perceive the world - and reality.

iview.abc.net.au

There is another scene where they are in an anechoic chamber and the host is left in there, until discomfort kicks in... oh and they had Genelec speakers installed.


JSmith

 

[MattHooper]

You don't need to worry about that in this case. If measurements show no difference, there is nothing to interpret. In the multi-channel example you post, the signal is absolutely changing to create those effects. With power tweaks, it never does. So there is nothing to interpret.

Amir, did you happen to look at the OP, or the videos/claims I mentioned?

If so I'd love to know your take. For instance, the audible consequences, or not, of the - 10dB drop in "noise floor" measurements using the Shunyata cabling in the recording studiol

 

[posvibes]

A whiles ago I got quite interested in irrationality and was surprised but not shocked that my brain was making decisions of its own accord without showing much deference to my decision making capability. We've had words about this often and I threatened taking legal action such as including a restraining order without success as he always seems to be a step or two ahead of me!

Our Brains Make Up Our Minds Before We Know It

Brain activity can foretell some choices before subjects are conscious of them.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[MattHooper]

A whiles ago I got quite interested in irrationality and was surprised but not shocked that my brain was making decisions of its own accord without showing much deference to my decision making capability. We've had words about this often and I threatened taking legal action such as including a restraining order without success as he always seems to be a step or two ahead of me!

Our Brains Make Up Our Minds Before We Know It

Brain activity can foretell some choices before subjects are conscious of them.

www.psychologytoday.com

Oh man, please, no. The amount of times that stuff has been brought up (misleadingly IMO) in endless discussions about Free Will.

Back to Shunyata...

 

[lisgotan]

I pour the same drink in two different looking glasses. I assume you accept that they taste the same. Do you need to know how the brain determines what something tastes like to know that?

Don't be so quick to assume that I will accept that they taste the same...

IF you do this test to many different people, some may tell you they taste different.

So now, do you know why they feel it taste difference other than slapping on the word placebo? Are you sure its indeed placebo? Now, then you have ot understand that taking the drink for the first time, the first sip, the impact to your get is different compared to the 2nd sip from the same glass.

The experience from someone who has drink it everyday will be different from someone who tried it for the very first time and so on.....

 

[lisgotan]

You don't need to worry about that in this case. If measurements show no difference, there is nothing to interpret. In the multi-channel example you post, the signal is absolutely changing to create those effects. With power tweaks, it never does. So there is nothing to interpret.

Can you be so certain that your measurements are indeed correct? The tests you performed are indeed correct? You merely assumed that what you tested is adequate amd thats all you need. Let me tell you that if pple think like you and others in this forum, sicence will never progress and we won't even have quantum mechanics. Even Einstein didn't believe in quantum mechanics.

4 convincing scientific theories that fooled scientists for decades

Peter Vickers of Durham University writes about four times when scientific theories appeared to be correct, but were far from reality.

www.siliconrepublic.com

Science is a process of constant refinement, with a knack for ironing out unhelpful twists and turns in the long run. And we all know that even the most trustworthy can occasionally let us down.

Its always important to keep an open mind in Science and disocver even new ways to prove that something is right. Never assume that what we know today is all that we have to know and its definitely right.

Feel free to ban me if you don't like me comments.

 

[JSmith]

Are you sure its indeed placebo?

Well it's the same drink out of the same bottle... therefore any perceived difference is nothing to do with the drink.

The tests you performed are indeed correct?

JSmith

 

[Palladium]

Ah yes, those new scientific theories backed by actual new evidence is on the same level as teapot "how can you be sure there isn't new evidence" babble.

 

[charleski]

From Shunyata's DTCD page:

A 15 volt drop in voltage during the conduction period compared to only a 5 volt drop with a Shunyata VENOM-3 power cord represents a night to day objective difference.

It certainly does. But golly gee, are they saying that a standard 120V power cord is only providing 105V to your amplifier? Wouldn't that be something people would have noticed long before now? Hang on, look at the 'Baseline' curve on the first graph and it turns out they're feeding these cables with 275A pulses... Do you have a heavy industrial electrical installation in your home, or do you have standard 120V/20A outlets? I'm guessing the latter.

So yes, 'objective difference', but only in a situation that's completely irrelevant to domestic hifi.

The rest of the page seems dedicated to demonstrating that (surprise!) larger cables can carry more current, again testing at current levels that far exceed those available for a domestic outlet.

 

[RayDunzl]

Its not about the audio signal itself. It extremely easy to record a signal and show its amplitude and frequencies. What that is extremely difficult is to decipher the information contained in this audio signal. Give you a really good example.

Not necessarily related to music, but Speech Recognition comes to mind for me.

I'll try singing my next SR request.

Done.

It worked.

 

[RayDunzl]

But golly gee, are they saying that a standard 120V power cord is only providing 105V to your amplifier?

It would be waaaaaay less than 105V here, given the 80 or more (estimated) feet of similarly sized wire going from the outlet to the breaker box.

Amazing my gear works at all.

Let's see, my Equitech (I know, I know) says 116V right now (noon).

Folks in the neighborhood must be running their heat pumps on "heat". It's 65F outside. I am.

That's enough for watching news on TV and listening through the rest of the system feeding the little JBLs..

 

[DonR]

Can you be so certain that your measurements are indeed correct? The tests you performed are indeed correct? You merely assumed that what you tested is adequate amd thats all you need. Let me tell you that if pple think like you and others in this forum, sicence will never progress and we won't even have quantum mechanics. Even Einstein didn't believe in quantum mechanics.

4 convincing scientific theories that fooled scientists for decades

Peter Vickers of Durham University writes about four times when scientific theories appeared to be correct, but were far from reality.

www.siliconrepublic.com

Science is a process of constant refinement, with a knack for ironing out unhelpful twists and turns in the long run. And we all know that even the most trustworthy can occasionally let us down.

Its always important to keep an open mind in Science and disocver even new ways to prove that something is right. Never assume that what we know today is all that we have to know and its definitely right.

Feel free to ban me if you don't like me comments.

We need a catch-all thread for this sort of nonsense. It happens a lot.

 

[Purité Audio]

Come the revolution they will be strung up with their own cables, although a cheaper generic cable would be just as good.
Keith

 

[Vive la dissonance!]

I pour the same drink in two different looking glasses. I assume you accept that they taste the same. Do you need to know how the brain determines what something tastes like to know that?

Side note, I have a friend who insists that hot tea (black tea, with milk; he's English) only tastes right when out of a white-on-the-interior mug or tea cup, and recoils physcially if you offer him the same tea in a mug or cup with any other color on the inside. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I do not try to argue with him on this.

Anyway, any number of "audiophile" claims to me are identical in substance to rejecting tea from an incorrectly colored mug. Certainly, take fancy power cables or interconnects, for two examples that supposedly can have a profound effect on audio quality.

It's odd to me that people think there's some sort of great mystery behind how sound works, or how well sound is presently understood. No, Virgnia, sound isn't dark energy.

 

[RayDunzl]

Come the revolution they will be strung up with their own cables, although a cheaper generic cable would be just as good.

No style points for that.

 

[antcollinet]

Don't be so quick to assume that I will accept that they taste the same...

IF you do this test to many different people, some may tell you they taste different.

So now, do you know why they feel it taste difference other than slapping on the word placebo? Are you sure its indeed placebo? Now, then you have ot understand that taking the drink for the first time, the first sip, the impact to your get is different compared to the 2nd sip from the same glass.

The experience from someone who has drink it everyday will be different from someone who tried it for the very first time and so on.....

But none of that has anything to do with the glass or the nature of the wine in it. The liquid is the same - just like the musical signal is the same. What you brain does with that has nothing to do with any change in the chemical makeup of the wine.

We can measure that there is no change in the musical signal - therefore nothing your brain does in perceiving a different sound is due to the power cable you've installed (EDITED TO ADD) having any electrical impact on the signal.

 

[DonR]

Side note, I have a friend who insists that hot tea (black tea, with milk; he's English) only tastes right when out of a white-on-the-interior mug or tea cup, and recoils physcially if you offer him the same tea in a mug or cup with any other color on the inside. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I do not try to argue with him on this.

Anyway, any number of "audiophile" claims to me are identical in substance to rejecting tea from an incorrectly colored mug. Certainly, take fancy power cables or interconnects, for two examples that supposedly can have a profound effect on audio quality.

It's odd to me that people think there's some sort of great mystery behind how sound works, or how well sound is presently understood. No, Virgnia, sound isn't dark energy.

The physics was understood about 150 years ago. The level of audibility using SOTA equipment was reached about 50 years ago. Time to drag out this old chestnut again:

 

[Blumlein 88]

We need a catch-all thread for this sort of nonsense. It happens a lot.

Science doesn't know everything

"Science doesn't know everything" (also "Science can't explain X"[note 1]) is an argument that asserts that, because of science's lack of knowledge about something, something else must be true. The implication is that, because science does not have an answer (or a sufficiently good answer)...

rationalwiki.org

This and links in this article cover all aspects of this faulty reasoning path. So post this link, but of course the poster won't read it. Because the poster is arguing in bad faith or arguing from ignorance.