• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Blind Test Results: Benchmark LA4 vs Conrad Johnson Tube Preamp

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,740
Likes
6,454
I have read that this test was not level matched and did not include fast switching.
This makes it a very poor-quality test, IMO of course.
Of course it was not a rigorous test. But you have to understand the historical context of 'high end' journalism. And to be fair, in the magz and ragz of the day, it was about as rigorous a listening test as you'd likely find.

Also, we must understand and recognize that the men heading these 'underground' reviews, namely Aczel, Gordon Holt, and Harry Pearson (to list the most well-known) were dyed in the wool subjectivists. So it was a big deal, simply because attempting to control variables was out of the ordinary.

One could point to the work of Mark Davis (MIT psycho-acoustics lab), who in 1977-8 was trying to introduce some controls into the audiophile scene, but no one in the high-end took him very seriously.

True, the 'mainstream' mags didn't go all in for the subjective stuff; the dichotomy was always there. In fact, Peter told me that Larry Klein (tech ed for Stereo Review) once told him that if he simply adjusted the volumes of two preamps to the point he could no longer hear a 'difference', then that would be as telling as any 'instrumented' test.

What set back the entire scene was, IMO, Aczel's inability to keep his publication going. So there was no real counterpoint to the subjectivist thing going on, at least for a long time, until he 'came back' from the dead. That, along with his Fourier debacle, which soured many people on his credibility.
 

xaxxon

Active Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2022
Messages
244
Likes
277
Ha! That's a question I've answered numerous times, not surprisingly given the general inclinations that attract folks to this forum.

Answering for myself: I like the aesthetics of tube amplification. I find my tube amps and preamp much more visually appealing than most solid state amplification. I also like the connection with the history of audio gear that comes with a tube amp. And I love the fact that the glowing tubes represent the actual musical signal being amplified. It is aesthetically and conceptually very satisfying, in a way yet another enclosed black or grey box doesn't satisfy.

As to adding coloration, to answer your question presumes one may find the tube preamp adds a pleasing distortion (as I seem to perceive).

The answer: If I like the sound, why not?

Why would it matter if the sound alteration was coming from the preamp, or amp, or speakers, or source, or an equalizer, or whatever?

The common reply is "well at least if you start off with neutral equipment, like a neutral amp/preamp, you can just add something else to change the sound to taste, be it some distortion-producing add on or an EQ to your taste. Then at least you have the option of turning off that coloration when you want to!"

Well...what if you don't care to turn it off? Then you are in the same situation whether you've arrived at an EQ setting you like or wherever else you put the "I Like This" coloration in your chain.

One reason why most people aren't adding some tube distortion thingy (device or plug-in) rather than an actual tube amp is because....where do you go for that?
There don't seem to be many easy to integrate ways of doing this. And I had a digital parametric EQ in my system for almost 20 years. For one thing I was never able, to my ears, to perfectly mimic the sound of my tube amplification using the EQ. For another, I just found I never needed it. I just liked the sound of my system. The tube coloration was a "set and forget" solution so I didn't have to bother fiddling with EQs or any other solution. I like pretty much everything I play on my system. No feeling of "needing EQ handy" like it seems some others need.

So if a tube pre-amp offers someone both aesthetic and conceptual pleasure a SS device doesn't, and offers a set-and-forget sound one likes...why fuss with other solutions that don't in the end offer all the things an actual tube amp does for an owner?
If you're picking amps based on how much you can see the tubes, then you're really in this for a VERY different reason than I am, so I guess we won't agree on much.
 
OP
MattHooper

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,316
Likes
12,267
Any difference in decay time, for exemple on cymbals?

Mmm...no. Though it may depend on what you mean.

Based on common audiophile terminology I didn't notice things like "the ringing of a cymbal being audible for a longer period" on one or the other preamp.
But as I mentioned, I did percieve the tube preamp as being a bit more opaque, the Benchmark slightly cleaner, which among other things meant that the more subtle "trails of reverb" seemed easier to hear on the Benchmark.
 

Mr. Widget

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2022
Messages
1,174
Likes
1,775
Location
SF Bay Area
The only takeaway from that little episode was to demonstrate how ugly and deranged the 'high end tweako' scene can get.
Hey, I take that personally... say it again and I'll stab you with my speaker spikes and pelt you with my Mpingo discs!
 

Mr. Widget

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2022
Messages
1,174
Likes
1,775
Location
SF Bay Area
Mmm...no. Though it may depend on what you mean.

Based on common audiophile terminology I didn't notice things like "the ringing of a cymbal being audible for a longer period" on one or the other preamp.
But as I mentioned, I did percieve the tube preamp as being a bit more opaque, the Benchmark slightly cleaner, which among other things meant that the more subtle "trails of reverb" seemed easier to hear on the Benchmark.
Apologies if you have already addressed this, as I must have missed it, but did you have a clear preference for one over the other?

I am of the school of thought that any answer is the correct one if you prefer it, though you have to be careful as sometimes the change initially seems preferable only to eventually be determined to be a step backward. All purely subjective to be sure.
 
OP
MattHooper

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,316
Likes
12,267
If you're picking amps based on how much you can see the tubes, then you're really in this for a VERY different reason than I am, so I guess we won't agree on much.

That could be.

But my hunch is that we are mostly engaged in buying equipment on the same criteria.

I buy audio equipment based on it's sonic performance and it's aesthetics.

How about you?

I know there are some audiophiles who really don't care about how any gear looks (and...yeek!...I've seen pictures of their set up, and it shows!). But it seems a majority of audiophiles do like gear they find to be nice looking, if they have the choice. I happen to find tube amplification often looks more pleasing to me than solid state, you may feel differently. But if you enjoy how any of your audio gear looks, then we are on the same page.

Similarly, I presume you care how any gear, amps or otherwise, perform sonically in your system. Otherwise I can't imagine why you'd be on a forum like this.
And in that case, we are both seeking a certain sonic performance. Taste being taste, I might like one system better and you another, but that's not surprising.
But in the general scheme of things, I doubt I'm in this for a "VERY" different reason than you are.

I could be wrong of course.
 
OP
MattHooper

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,316
Likes
12,267
Apologies if you have already addressed this, as I must have missed it, but did you have a clear preference for one over the other?

I am of the school of thought that any answer is the correct one if you prefer it, though you have to be careful as sometimes the change initially seems preferable only to eventually be determined to be a step backward. All purely subjective to be sure.

I'm still going back and forth between them. Sometimes I use the settings where they are volume matched (per the blind test) but most of the time I'm just switching between the two preamps. I really do love the clarity and lack of any grunge to the Benchmark preamp, and the added sense of precision. And also the way the recorded acoustic and reverbs seem just that bit more prominent/discernible. We audiophiles (even "objectivists") make mountains out of molehills because that's the nature of being a hobbyist or enthusiast. But some of the differences that are subtle have sort of larger subjective effects. For instance, a while back I was listening to one older jazz track (and now I'm forgetting which one) which is spare instrumentation, sax on the right, another instrument on the left which is silent while the sax on the right solos (I may even be thinking of Kinda Blue...I can't remember because I played a lot of stuff like that). When the sax in the right speaker plays it's in it's own alcove of reverb, but you can also hear it's reverb showing up in the back Left corner of the soundstage, behind the left speaker too. I don't know if this was added to give a subtle stereo effect, but I suspect it was likely some bleed through with the other instrument mics picking up that sax, so it's like the sax has an "echo" showing up in the back of the opposite channel.

So on the CJ preamp, the sax sounds a bit more vivid and prominent, a bit less "stuck in the speaker" and also a bit more acoustically dense and round, a bit thicker, more body. And I can hear the very particular reverb around the sax, and also the particular reverb trail happening in the other speaker.

On the Benchmark, the sax looses a little of the vividness/prominence/density, but being slightly cleaner gains a bit more timbral subtlety and complexity. But what really gets me is what happens with the reverbs. There's the reverb around the sax itself, the "bleed through" reverb all the way at the other back right side of the soundstage, but also now there is a *very* subtle reverb of the sax I can hear occurring through the center of the soundstage (added later? Picked up by the center-placed mic for another instrument?). The effect is that where the two different sax reverbs sounded separated and distinct, it's like the acoustic opens up, the sax is now lighting up an acoustic that goes all the way from that sax to that other alcove of reverb, and now I have a greater sense of peering in to a larger acoustic, more like a different acoustic has appeared between the speakers.

When I switch back to the CJ (which I can do with the press of a button from the sofa), if I listen closely I can just barely hear that super low level swath of reverb in the center of the soundstage, but I have to strain more to hear it. With the Benchmark it's revealed just enough more to make it effortless to hear and the sensation is the sax now playing in a larger acoustic space, a studio, rather than just being steered to the right channel and some reverb showing up in the left channel.

The difference is so subtle that I would expect most "normies" to shrug over it, even if they heard it. But, hey, these kind of things are what make the hobby intriguing to me and I find subtle differences can have a large subjective impact for my listening experience.

All that said, if forced to pick one preamp over the other I would probably still pick the CJ preamp, because I just love the vividness and density, something I really seek in reproduced sound. But over time I may find I will choose the Benchmark. Not sure yet.
 

RichB

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 24, 2019
Messages
1,955
Likes
2,622
Location
Massachusetts
That could be.

But my hunch is that we are mostly engaged in buying equipment on the same criteria.

I buy audio equipment based on it's sonic performance and it's aesthetics.

How about you?

I know there are some audiophiles who really don't care about how any gear looks (and...yeek!...I've seen pictures of their set up, and it shows!). But it seems a majority of audiophiles do like gear they find to be nice looking, if they have the choice. I happen to find tube amplification often looks more pleasing to me than solid state, you may feel differently. But if you enjoy how any of your audio gear looks, then we are on the same page.

Similarly, I presume you care how any gear, amps or otherwise, perform sonically in your system. Otherwise I can't imagine why you'd be on a forum like this.
And in that case, we are both seeking a certain sonic performance. Taste being taste, I might like one system better and you another, but that's not surprising.
But in the general scheme of things, I doubt I'm in this for a "VERY" different reason than you are.

I could be wrong of course.

I also like nice aesthetics, but FAF (Family Approval Factor) is important.
Here are my disguised Rythmik E22 dual twelve-inch subs, cabinetry by Salk Audio.

E22Side.jpg

- Rich
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,895
Likes
16,896
Very interesting, wasn't there also a challenge where Carver made his amp sound like a tube amp or is that internet lore?

- Rich
 
  • Like
Reactions: MAB
OP
MattHooper

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,316
Likes
12,267
I also like nice aesthetics, but FAF (Family Approval Factor) is important.
Here are my disguised Rythmik E22 dual twelve-inch subs, cabinetry by Salk Audio.

View attachment 247373

- Rich

I generally don't like the look of subwoofers, but that one is actually a beauty (for a sub!).

When I had my subs I had them covered in black velvet, sitting on the black velvet "stage" around my projection screen, so they were made mostly invisible under all but the brightest lighting.
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,740
Likes
6,454
Hey, I take that personally... say it again and I'll stab you with my speaker spikes and pelt you with my Mpingo discs!
Listen, Pal... in order to get to me you'll first have to jump over and not trip on my SnakeMonster speaker cable on the high rise lifters. And if you do make it that far, I'm coming at you with a Green CD Sharpie in one hand, and a razor sharp KT88 (with the glass end broken off) in the other.
 

Mr. Widget

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2022
Messages
1,174
Likes
1,775
Location
SF Bay Area
I'm still going back and forth between them. Sometimes I use the settings where they are volume matched (per the blind test) but most of the time I'm just switching between the two preamps....
Understood. Nice to have options.

I have had quite a few SS and tube preamps and amps in residence. Some for hours others for weeks or years. Other than a Marantz 7C which is in storage I don't currently have any tube gear in the house. I am more of a "straight wire with gain" sort and have been disappointed by most of the tube gear I have had. I never had any CJ gear, but I have had a large number of the more famous McIntosh pieces and a couple of true ultra high end for their day preamps. I had the Rodger Madjeski designed RM-1 Beveridge preamp and the MFA Reference for a while. Both were quite good, but were only here on loan.
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,747
Likes
37,572
Understood. Nice to have options.

I have had quite a few SS and tube preamps and amps in residence. Some for hours others for weeks or years. Other than a Marantz 7C which is in storage I don't currently have any tube gear in the house. I am more of a "straight wire with gain" sort and have been disappointed by most of the tube gear I have had. I never had any CJ gear, but I have had a large number of the more famous McIntosh pieces and a couple of true ultra high end for their day preamps. I had the Rodger Madjeski designed RM-1 Beveridge preamp and the MFA Reference for a while. Both were quite good, but were only here on loan.
Oooh! That Beveridge was such a nice product. I knew a couple people with them.
 
OP
MattHooper

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,316
Likes
12,267
QUESTION:

Over the years I have seemed to perceive that my CJ preamp sounded a bit better depending on the volume setting. By that I mean: when streaming my digital content - ripped CDs etc - I could adjust the volume digitally via the iphone app (previously a Logitech/raspberry pi server), or I could set the digital volume to max and use the CJ preamp remote for adjusting volume. It sometimes seemed to me that for a given volume level, the sound was slightly better with my preamp at a louder volume setting. In other words for a 70 dB level at the listening position, comparing these two ways of reaching 70 dB:

1. Digital volume set at max, so the CJ preamp volume control is used to reach 70 dB at the listening seat.

vs

2. The CJ volume set louder and then the digital volume used to dial down to 70 dB at the listening seat.



#2 seemed to sound a little bit better than the former.

I never really put much time in to investigating this, it was only an impression I seemed to have sometimes, which I don't really trust. On the other hand, I've read that for some preamps there really is a difference in technical performance which varies depending on the volume level setting - basically you enter a sweet spot of performance once you hit a certain spot on the dial. So I'm wondering if it's plausible the volume on my preamp does indeed have some audible "sweet spot" in this way.

Any thoughts? I think it's likely my imagination, but I'm open to being wrong.

(I don't notice any such volume-related changes in performance with my Benchmark LA4 preamp).
 

kongwee

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Messages
1,024
Likes
276
If you can produce the sound clips at your sweat spot, you can see the difference, and even do null and "listen" to the difference. No doubt tube will sound "louder" due to very soft saturation.
 

rwortman

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 29, 2019
Messages
741
Likes
684
Preamp volume controls are usually before the final gain stage. This means signal to noise ratio gets better and better as the volume goes up.
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,747
Likes
37,572
QUESTION:

Over the years I have seemed to perceive that my CJ preamp sounded a bit better depending on the volume setting. By that I mean: when streaming my digital content - ripped CDs etc - I could adjust the volume digitally via the iphone app (previously a Logitech/raspberry pi server), or I could set the digital volume to max and use the CJ preamp remote for adjusting volume. It sometimes seemed to me that for a given volume level, the sound was slightly better with my preamp at a louder volume setting. In other words for a 70 dB level at the listening position, comparing these two ways of reaching 70 dB:

1. Digital volume set at max, so the CJ preamp volume control is used to reach 70 dB at the listening seat.

vs

2. The CJ volume set louder and then the digital volume used to dial down to 70 dB at the listening seat.



#2 seemed to sound a little bit better than the former.

I never really put much time in to investigating this, it was only an impression I seemed to have sometimes, which I don't really trust. On the other hand, I've read that for some preamps there really is a difference in technical performance which varies depending on the volume level setting - basically you enter a sweet spot of performance once you hit a certain spot on the dial. So I'm wondering if it's plausible the volume on my preamp does indeed have some audible "sweet spot" in this way.

Any thoughts? I think it's likely my imagination, but I'm open to being wrong.

(I don't notice any such volume-related changes in performance with my Benchmark LA4 preamp).
Yes, those CJ preamps can put out a lot of voltage, and therefore get used turned down. I did this for a friend who had a couple of them. Made a small box that plugged into the power amp input which had simple voltage dividers using metal film resistors to knock the signal down to I think 12 db less or maybe it was 10 db. Anyway it let him run his volume on the CJ well up with a bit of room left in case he ran across recordings with lower level than usual. Option #2 is what I'd expect to be better for that reason.

These in line attenuators from Harrison Labs are a bit over priced I think, but would be a simple way to do this. Just make sure from your experiments if you need 6 or 12 db lower level signals. Then you could run max digital level and control things with the CJ.
 
OP
MattHooper

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,316
Likes
12,267
If you can produce the sound clips at your sweat spot, you can see the difference, and even do null and "listen" to the difference. No doubt tube will sound "louder" due to very soft saturation.

Preamp volume controls are usually before the final gain stage. This means signal to noise ratio gets better and better as the volume goes up.

Yes, those CJ preamps can put out a lot of voltage, and therefore get used turned down. I did this for a friend who had a couple of them. Made a small box that plugged into the power amp input which had simple voltage dividers using metal film resistors to knock the signal down to I think 12 db less or maybe it was 10 db. Anyway it let him run his volume on the CJ well up with a bit of room left in case he ran across recordings with lower level than usual. Option #2 is what I'd expect to be better for that reason.

These in line attenuators from Harrison Labs are a bit over priced I think, but would be a simple way to do this. Just make sure from your experiments if you need 6 or 12 db lower level signals. Then you could run max digital level and control things with the CJ.
https://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs-Line-Level-Attenuator/dp/B0006N41B0

Thanks for the replies everyone. rwortman, that is the type of explanation I had in mind.

Blumlein 88: first, how nice of you to build that for your friend! Your reply is very interesting! I don't know that I would bother to add anything to my system to address this.

But your explanation brings up another issue, and perhaps makes some sense of it: When I first got the LA4 and I was comparing it to my CJ preamp, I was just swapping the RCA out from the amps between the preamps. Eventually as described in my blind test, I ran the CJ through the LA4. I did compare doing this vs just swapping the RCAs and, very similar to my question above, had the impression that the CJ bypassing the LA4 sounded a little better.

I essentially ignored this impression because we know the LA4 is in any practical sense audibly transparent. I didn't for a moment think "the LA4 is adding something audible" in of itself. However, running the CJ through the LA4 DOES bump the CJ signal up, hence having to using the lower volume levels on the CJ. Again, I wonder if that in itself may explain my impression of the sound being a bit better running the CJ directlly to the amps. (I haven't tried again - I've left the CJ running through my LA4 since my blind test).
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,747
Likes
37,572
Thanks for the replies everyone. rwortman, that is the type of explanation I had in mind.

Blumlein 88: first, how nice of you to build that for your friend! Your reply is very interesting! I don't know that I would bother to add anything to my system to address this.

But your explanation brings up another issue, and perhaps makes some sense of it: When I first got the LA4 and I was comparing it to my CJ preamp, I was just swapping the RCA out from the amps between the preamps. Eventually as described in my blind test, I ran the CJ through the LA4. I did compare doing this vs just swapping the RCAs and, very similar to my question above, had the impression that the CJ bypassing the LA4 sounded a little better.

I essentially ignored this impression because we know the LA4 is in any practical sense audibly transparent. I didn't for a moment think "the LA4 is adding something audible" in of itself. However, running the CJ through the LA4 DOES bump the CJ signal up, hence having to using the lower volume levels on the CJ. Again, I wonder if that in itself may explain my impression of the sound being a bit better running the CJ directlly to the amps. (I haven't tried again - I've left the CJ running through my LA4 since my blind test).
It could be what is happening. If you wanted to bother you could take the output from the various ways of connecting the preamps and measure it with an ADC. Use some simple test tones and see what results you get with different configurations. Running the CJ lower and then going thru another preamp would worsen SNR, dynamic range and SINAD somewhat. Whether it is audible or not hard to say without more info.
 

rwortman

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 29, 2019
Messages
741
Likes
684
This is why pro audio power amps have volume knobs. We set all the previous stages to maximize S/N ratio and then use the final amplifiers’ volume knobs to set maximum system volume.
 
Top Bottom