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An audio engineer explains why Dolby Atmos Music is “definitely going to supersede stereo”

theREALdotnet

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  1. those plain-stereo-bits are 'hidden' in an Atmos package.

Well hidden. The Atmos streams from Apple Music have 16 channels. How do I know? I watched the video I posted the link of. ;)

I don’t think you can just pick two of those channels and throw away the rest. Some processing will be required to arrive at two channels.
 
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AdamG

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What the fuck is Stereo-Atmos?
Dial back your aggression or you will be sanctioned. If you can not remain civil don’t post. This was a pleasant conversation and I intend to keep it that way.
 
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AdamG

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plugins written but people who were fed up with the industry's loudness. And again, absolutely nothing Atmos about those de-crapper plugins (guess you knew that, just worth repeating)

Some amazing code there but yes, it cannot do wonders.
The diffs we see/hear are so big and so good, it is highly likely to be remixes/remasters of the original recordings. Good ones this time. A lot of that (re)work was already done to promote MQA.

Those beautiful remixes can also be sold as plain old stereo FLACs. But why should you have fun without paying Dolby/Apple/studios/etc? That would be unacceptable!

you guys keep posting about Atmos doing 'stereo miracles'. Is there any proof or trace of that 'Atmos stereo magic' anywhere? Any documentation, any examples .. anyfreakinthing ...
Same for you as I stated to abdo123 above. You both are one step away from thread bans and possible further sanctions. I don’t know where all this anger is coming from but if you can’t contain yourself I will do it for you. You both have been Warned.
 
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AdamG

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You don't really get to ''Objects'' territory till you go above 7.1.2. The below 2 hour interview is WELL worth the time.

I have seen this. There are no real hard and fast rules for Atmos. Denon and Marantz AVR’s do permit a 5.1.2, 5.1.4 and 5.1.6 setup. So it is a setup that is supported by Denon and Audyssey. Even the Dolby Atmos page supports 5.x.x configurations. See link below:

Excerpt from linked page:

“Dolby Atmos speaker layouts parallel the 5.1 and 7.1 setups for surround sound.

  • A 5.1.2 or 7.1.2 system uses two ceiling speakers, or two Dolby Atmos-enabled speakers or modules.
  • A 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 system uses four ceiling speakers, or four Dolby Atmos-enabled speakers or modules.
  • A 9.1.2 system adds a pair of front wide speakers to a 7.1.2 layout.”


9ECE76E3-91E8-42AF-9830-706B4816669B.png
 
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lashto

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Same for you as I stated to abdo123 above. You both are one step away from thread bans and possible further sanctions. I don’t know where all this anger is coming from but if you can’t contain yourself I will do it for you. You both have been Warned.
fair enough.

This thread reminds me too much of the debates many years ago around microsoft's EEE. Such an amazing number of very smart people did fall for that 'strategy'. And 10+ years later when the DoJ revealead the whole deception, there was a big choir of self inflicted facepalms. (Amir surely knows a lot more on that but not sure if I would tell such stories if I was in his shoes.)

In any case, one must admit: Dolby&co did an excellent job at hiding the 'honey bits' this time. And it's not like any of us can stop the gigantic music industry carrier...

But this time, they'll need to drive around my wallet. Sooner or later someone will sell/provide the 'honey bits'. Hopefully for a reasonable price and not just for rent (as long as you daily-pay the RIAA tax)

me out...
 
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AdamG

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fair enough.

This thread reminds me too much of the debates many years ago around microsoft's EEE. Such an amazing number of very smart people did fall for that 'strategy'. And 10+ years later when the DoJ revealead the whole deception, there was a big choir of self inflicted facepalms. (Amir surely knows a lot more on that but not sure if I would tell such stories if I was in his shoes.)

In any case, one must admit: Dolby&co did an excellent job at hiding the 'honey bits' this time. And it's not like any of us can stop the gigantic music industry carrier...

But this time, they'll need to drive around my wallet. Sooner or later someone will sell/provide the 'honey bits'. Hopefully for a reasonable price and not just for rent (as long as you daily-pay the RIAA tax)

me out...
I certainly don’t mind your involvement and opinions. Actually I invite your opinion here. But do so without the anger and aggression. I consider this a learning thread just like any other thread on ASR. Just keep it civil and respectful is all I ask.
 

abdo123

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I have seen this. There are no real hard and fast rules for Atmos. Denon and Marantz AVR’s do permit a 5.1.2, 5.1.4 and 5.1.6 setup. So it is a setup that is supported by Denon and Audyssey. Even the Dolby Atmos page supports 5.x.x configurations. See link below:

Excerpt from linked page:

“Dolby Atmos speaker layouts parallel the 5.1 and 7.1 setups for surround sound.

  • A 5.1.2 or 7.1.2 system uses two ceiling speakers, or two Dolby Atmos-enabled speakers or modules.
  • A 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 system uses four ceiling speakers, or four Dolby Atmos-enabled speakers or modules.
  • A 9.1.2 system adds a pair of front wide speakers to a 7.1.2 layout.”


View attachment 247297

I understand, but from the interview it seemed like the positional information of individual objects is only relevant once you’re beyond 7.1.2. And they’re included in the mix of the main channels otherwise.
 

mhardy6647

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Yes, I remember Quadraphonic in the early 70's (1970's, not 1870's). I remember MIT undergrads (Hi!, Craig) using some passive network that did some magic (common signal phase shifted to the rear speakers, maybe) to simulate 4-channel sound. This was in between hacking phone systems, tragically failing with women, and agonizing over EE problem sets.

IHTFP
"Hafler system" (as in David Hafler of Acrosound, Dynaco, and... umm... Hafler fame) -- drive two rear loudspeakers with the out-of-phase components of the two-channel signal.
It's surprisingly effective (depending on the source recording), simple and cheap.
There are also a few permutations, right up to and including Dolby Pro Logic. ;)

1669987142986.png

source: https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Radio-Electronics/90s/1993/EN-1993-02.pdf






I find the endless re-invention of quad most amusing. The "industry" seems hell-bent on forcing consumers to buy more loudspeakers and more channels of amplification. :)
 

lashto

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I certainly don’t mind your involvement and opinions. Actually I invite your opinion here. But do so without the anger and aggression. I consider this a learning thread just like any other thread on ASR. Just keep it civil and respectful is all I ask.
that's fine. I was too involved in the EEE stuff and do not want a repeat.
Many here will see my posts as a killjoy ... and there surely is a lot of that in there

The stereo King is dead, long live the new King... :D
 
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AdamG

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I understand, but from the interview it seemed like the positional information of individual objects is only relevant once you’re beyond 7.1.2. And they’re included in the mix of the main channels otherwise.
As I understand it you have Bed level speakers and you have Object level speakers. Bed level speakers are anchored to the horizontal plane and are expected to be placed on the ground and ear level while seated. Object level speakers are placed above and can be moved from the top front to top side and top back. There is also an option to do Objects directly overhead and slightly to the side in rows. Bed lever speakers get direct channel information while object channels get shared ambiance and Spacial queues and are not fixed in place. This is just my rudimentary understanding. So a 5.x.x is an option for home theater setup for smaller rooms that can not accommodate more bed channels.
 

theREALdotnet

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In any case, one must admit: Dolby&co did an excellent job at hiding the 'honey bits' this time. And it's not like any of us can stop the gigantic music industry carrier...

I get what you’re aiming your resentment at, but Dolby Labs is not the music industry. It’s a tech company that develops and licenses technology. They compete with the likes of Sony and Dbx (sorry, Harman, sorry, Samsung). The music industry, i.e. the various labels and their trade organisations, is a behemoth that technology companies, broadcasting networks and streaming services have to contend with, because they own the content rights. There is a thicket of relationships and alliances that have been formed in order to get ahead and make a buck, and that only insiders have a hope of fully understanding.

The outcomes for consumers are varied and sometimes poor, but this is not at all the same situation that Microsoft created when they used their OS dominance to muscle their way into web browser dominance.

I also see no parallels between Dolby and MQA, the former being a technology company with over 50 years of history and the latter being a licensing scheme without technological substance.
 

Blumlein 88

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You don't really get to ''Objects'' territory till you go above 7.1.2. The below 2 hour interview is WELL worth the time.

Without me listening to two hours of this video, if 7.1.2 doesn't get you object oriented audio, how many channels minimum does it take?
 
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Blumlein 88

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Any setup of speakers that has a higher number?
Come on you can do better than that.

8.1.2 work?
7.1.3?

Or does it really mean anything with 4 or more for the overhead speakers and at least 5.1 horizontally.

Oh, and I can predict one day, Atmos will be updated to include down below speakers. Maybe they call it Phatmos or maybe Atmos-D so it can be confused for down, digital, dsp or something. Or maybe Atmos 360.
 

Godataloss

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hmm ..nope , nope; I have tried surround processing formats for my stereo music for years, yes all those dolby surrounds, multichannel and pro logic stuff, it was Ok, gimmicky, But i was always going back to old good stereo, but ATMOS music when mastered well is quite different thing my friend, right now, streaming ATMOS is same price as streaming stereo so.....
It stopped being gimmicky with 5.1 discrete. That was over 20 years ago. How many here bothered setting up 5.1 systems for music? Who thinks adding height channels to audio is going to improve adoption?

Or is this all just preparation for when AI starts churning out all our media necessitating object-oriented composing?
 

abdo123

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Oh, and I can predict one day, Atmos will be updated to include down below speakers.

It already does, if someone coded an object to be below and there are speakers in that spot I expect the object to come from there.

but unorthodox layouts would probably require something like the Storm or Trinnov processors.

Come on you can do better than that.
It's not as simple as you think it is, I recommend you watch the interview.
 
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AdamG

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Come on you can do better than that.

8.1.2 work?
7.1.3?

Or does it really mean anything with 4 or more for the overhead speakers and at least 5.1 horizontally.

Oh, and I can predict one day, Atmos will be updated to include down below speakers. Maybe they call it Phatmos or maybe Atmos-D so it can be confused for down, digital, dsp or something. Or maybe Atmos 360.
I believe Atmos is fully scalable. It will up or down sample/convert/converge/expand the sound to fit the speaker layout Reported to it by the AVR/Processor. So any configuration down to 2.0.2 (you must have at least 2 overhead channels) channels and up to 15 channels or more can be used and the Dolby atmos processor will up/down convert the sound to suit. At least that is my understanding of how this works. I can go collect all the video presentations by Denon, Audyssey Reps and Dolby Labs peeps. But I suspect many here don’t want to be bothered by watching a 2 hour video explanation of how this tech works.

However, for those who are interested in learning more about how multichannel/ATMOS audio works here is a good video by Audioholics and Sound United (Denon & Marantz).


 
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Tim Link

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I don’t have much interest in multi-channel music, perhaps due to a bad experience many years ago with a DVDA (or SACD?) that contained 5.1 versions of some pop music I liked. The experience was just weird and unpleasant.

About a week ago I encountered this video:

It talks about how Apple Music downmixes Atmos tracks to stereo in real time, and how great that sounds. I’ve been trying this for a week now and must say I’m as impressed as the creator of this video. Like him, I had no idea that Apple Music would play Atmos content over a regular stereo system, and like him I‘m impressed with the much improved dynamic range and natural sound that comes out of those Atmos tracks.

The video also contains some interesting technical tidbits about the many different renditions of a track Apple Music offers for download, to suit different playback situations.

To anyone with a fairly recent Mac, iPhone or iPad connected to a USB DAC I’d say, give this a shot. The difference is not subtle.
Great! Thank you! I'll try this Atmos always on. What I'm finding is that I actually prefer 2 channel stereo up-mixed on my receiver using Dolby Pro Logic II Cinema to the multi channel mixes from Atmos. I'm finding the quality of the source material is critical to getting the Pro Logic up-mix to give a good sounding result. My first mistake was using the analog inputs on my receiver because I needed some EQ for my speakers. I finally got around this by using BlueTooth to get the sound to my receiver. BlueTooth is a compressed format but it beats the additional A/D D/A conversion without a question. I've ordered a digital output dongle for my computer soon so I can get an Atmos stereo mix digital signal to my receiver. Should have that dongle next week.

Update: A few minutes of listening with Atmos set to "always on" and there's no question - these two channel Atmos mixes sound very good. Some of this sounds so crisp, punchy and well separated it's a little disconcerting. I think I've become accustomed to a bit of murkiness. The bass seems more defined and taut. I noticed this earlier on some soundtracks making my little speakers seem like they had much better woofers.
 
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IPunchCholla

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I just tried this. Streaming via Music, output to Scarlett 4i4 to PA5 to speakers. Tried a Black Keys and a Billy Eilish song. In both cases the only real difference I could here was a reduction in volume in the lower mids and bass. So, a reduction a bit in compression? But the consequence was (counterintuitively) was to reduce the impression of DR since the highs had less bass contrast. So far, I prefer the lossless stereo. Maybe because I think compression is an essential tool, and not just a simple binary good/bad thing.
 

Tim Link

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I just tried this. Streaming via Music, output to Scarlett 4i4 to PA5 to speakers. Tried a Black Keys and a Billy Eilish song. In both cases the only real difference I could here was a reduction in volume in the lower mids and bass. So, a reduction a bit in compression? But the consequence was (counterintuitively) was to reduce the impression of DR since the highs had less bass contrast. So far, I prefer the lossless stereo. Maybe because I think compression is an essential tool, and not just a simple binary good/bad thing.
I think compression has its place. It doesn't always sound bad. It's nice to have an option.
 
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