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Carver Raven 350 Review (Tube Amp)

Rate this amplifier:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 269 82.8%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 29 8.9%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 17 5.2%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 10 3.1%

  • Total voters
    325

EJ3

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Caveat emptor. Amplifier manufacturers have been lying as long as I remember. At one point some listed a "Peak Power" that could only be (briefly) achieved if you shorted the power supply. They aren't alone; car sub specs are usually complete fabrications, too.
Yes, CARS: When I worked for the Porsche factory in the1980's (as a quality inspector (various jobs over the years [paint inspector, operating a chassis dyno [making sure that every function worked as intended {AC down to a certain temperature, heat up to a certain temperature, etc]}) one of the things that was made clear by management was that we were to make sure that the vehicle exceeded the specifications that were claimed. A given example was that: "if one of our vehicles is supposed to be able to go 173 MPH: if it was proven to only go 172 MPH, the purchaser will be a very unhappy customer (as would Porsche), putting a ding in the confidence of the brand. But, if the vehicle was proven to go 175 MPH, then the customer would be happy, possibly (probably) spreading the word that the vehicle does better than expected and help build the brand via word of mouth.
 

Dmitri

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I think part of the confusion here arises from how badly the human ear can tell the difference between transparent electronics and amplifiers, DACs, etc that are imperfect and compromising the signal.

I think that many music listeners wouldn't be able to tell the difference between listening to a DAC with a SINAD of 75 dB and one with a SINAD of 110 dB, or a DAC with only 12 bits of linearity vs one with accuracy down to 22 bits, or an amplifier with a SINAD of 50 dB vs one with a SINAD of 85 dB or better. So they can't understand why the gear that measures so poorly actually sounds OK to them... it takes training and practice to be able to hear these things, and using pure tones to listen can often tell you more about the transparency of a gain stage or DAC process than listening to music can. All the signals and their harmonics in music can mask an awful lot of nonlinearity.

The value of making measurements is to find which gear actually adds the least to the music, the minimum amount of artifact. One may not be able to hear the difference - but at least if you are using electronics which have been shown to be changing the audio signal as little as possible, you can have some assurance that what you are listening to is actually in the recording, and not added ( or subtracted ) by your playback chain.

I provided some of the Audio-GD DACs and headphone amps to Amirm for testing that was reported here. And, frankly, when I listened to them on music I didn't hear the horrors that the testing showed. I got rid of the Audio-GD DACs and got a Topping E-50 and a Schiit Modius DAC for my various playback setups. I can't say that I heard any difference - note that I did not A/B these newer DACs against the Audio-GD units - but at any rate I now feel some confidence that my DACs are neutral and transparent.

I've done a lot of casual A/B blind testing of various DACs and amplifiers, I've done A/B between Red Book 44.1 / 16 vs "HD" 96 / 24 tracks and I found that I just could not tell any difference, either using my Stealth 'phones or my Quad ESL 57 speakers.

In the end, if you want to listen to equipment that measures poorly but you believe sounds great - that's your choice. You are responding to your BELIEF about the sound, not to the sound itself. Hearing is subjective, ears are not microphones and the brain doesn't know how to be objective. Chances are few -if any - of us can ACTUALLY hear much difference between a lot of these different amps and DACs. Some folks, with training, can hear differences which would not be apparent to most of us. And it's been shown that, in general, those that have the training and experience prefer the equipment that measures well over the stuff that doesn't make the numbers.

The other reason to measure equipment has nothing to do with how it sounds playing music, but is a measure of the HONESTY of the manufacturer. If the manufacturer says an amplifier can put out 150 watts into 8 ohms with distortion products down 80 dB ( that is THD below 0.01% ) and we measure that amplifier and it hits 1% distortion at 75 watts and gets worse from there on up - well, now we have found that the manufacturer is not being truthful with us. Should we reward manufacturers who lie to the public by spending our hard-earned dollars on their products? I would say, no we should not.
Well said. For most of us, from an audible perspective, the measurements aren’t at issue. A manufacturer’s integrity and commitment to quality engineering is everything. We’re all gearheads here in some form or another. We take pride in knowing that our equipment has been designed to be the best it can possibly be at the price point we can afford. When able, I will always pay more for quality, even when it’s not readily apparent in use.
Sadly, it appears that a number of “high end“ companies have learned to abuse that notion...pretty boxes that hide mediocrity in design, unjustifiable prices that are in themselves selling points because if the masses can afford it, it can’t be quality. It’s not even a matter of diminishing returns anymore. More has often become less, marketing and manufacture reduced to shiny baubles that attract the eye, false subjective claims and specifications made meaningless by lack of parameters and ludicrously smoothed graphs.

Go get ‘em ASR.
 

frki16

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Well said. For most of us, from an audible perspective, the measurements aren’t at issue. A manufacturer’s integrity and commitment to quality engineering is everything. We’re all gearheads here in some form or another. We take pride in knowing that our equipment has been designed to be the best it can possibly be at the price point we can afford. When able, I will always pay more for quality, even when it’s not readily apparent in use.
Sadly, it appears that a number of “high end“ companies have learned to abuse that notion...pretty boxes that hide mediocrity in design, unjustifiable prices that are in themselves selling points because if the masses can afford it, it can’t be quality. It’s not even a matter of diminishing returns anymore. More has often become less, marketing and manufacture reduced to shiny baubles that attract the eye, false subjective claims and specifications made meaningless by lack of parameters and ludicrously smoothed graphs.

Go get ‘em ASR.
so, again...why he didn't make listening test? if it sound exceptional I don't see problem here...think Amir is hiding something :)
 

frki16

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where in measurements I can read amplifier will be on bright or warm side?
 

staticV3

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where in measurements I can read amplifier will be on bright or warm side?
here:
Carver Raven Monoblock 350 watts Amplifier Frequency Response Measurements.png
 

solderdude

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where in measurements I can read amplifier will be on bright or warm side?

You can't really say anything about this t.b.h. because there are not enough measurements done.

All we can say is that in low feedback mode, with 4 ohm resistive load (does not exist IRL) and on 4 ohm tap it sounds a tiny bit more 'detailed'/'sharper' than on higher feedback mode. The plot ONLY says something about this aspect in this particular load.

StaticV3's post saved me the trouble of posting the FR plot.

The frequency response (so 'tone') is setting (low feedback or not) and speaker impedance dependent.
The (probably and also not determined) output resistance also has an influence on the sound depending on the speaker.
 

Killingbeans

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so, again...why he didn't make listening test? if it sound exceptional I don't see problem here...think Amir is hiding something :)

You just choose to ignore the link I gave you above?

If you don't continue this discussion in the other thread, the moderators are going to move the posts over there anyway. You'd might as well do the jump on your own.

Amir isn't hiding anything. Other than when it's clipping or having difficulties with an atypical load, an amp is very unlikely to distinguish itself from any other amp. And if it does so, it's clearly indicated in the measurements. Amir is focused on making a smorgasbord of objective data available, only spending time on subjective impressions in the cases where the differences are substantial enough to make cognitive bias a minor concern, and/or where the correlation between measurements and impressions are most impactful. Speakers and headphones for the most part.

where in measurements I can read amplifier will be on bright or warm side?

Frequency response.

Some say that it's also indicated by the distortion measurements, others say it's a myth.

And of course perceptual bias can give it all kinds of intensities and temperatures.
 
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Jimi Floyd

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so, again...why he didn't make listening test? if it sound exceptional I don't see problem here...think Amir is hiding something :)
Because no listening test is a test. Reporting listening impressions is a useless exercise, depending on countless variables such as the music, the room, other equipment involved, mood and state of mind, who is listening, expectations about the gear on test, economical interests involved such as ads by the manufacturer published on the newspaper where the review is published etc. etc. etc.

If you rely on "listening impressions" on YouTube, Stereophile, other web sites, other magazines, web forums (full with ghost accounts...) you probably would trust white van free tacos
 
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IncognitOz

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For almost twenty years now I have argued that most high-end companies offer garbage of products in beautiful packaging that is sold by weight, and people's are not aware of what they are buying. Amir proves it time and time again. Amazing and sad at the same time.
 

Jim Shaw

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For almost twenty years now I have argued that most high-end companies offer garbage of products in beautiful packaging that is sold by weight, and people's are not aware of what they are buying. Amir proves it time and time again. Amazing and sad at the same time.
The truth is, there are two almost unrelated reasons for buying expensive home audio playback gear:

1. Marginally better music entertainment, at exponentially higher cost, and
2. Fashion; showing off to acquaintances and/or bolstering the owner's ego.

These reasons are diametrical to another large population of audio hobbyists: the tinkerers and/or serial spenders who are forever engaged in trying to get silken sound from roadkill pelt-quality components.

That these several groups have trouble understanding one another is not a miracle.

And, there are various shades of differences in between. It's good to know yourself and where you fit in the continuum. Otherwise, life is just argumentative because of your misunderstanding. Be at peace with where you fit in.
 

mhardy6647

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Having been gifted with zero aesthetic sense (to a very good approximation), I shall forever be in the road kill pelt camp.
I like that turn of phrase!
 

DonH56

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Longevity/reliability (real or perceived) is another reason people buy expensive gear. My system cost a fortune but I got it for performance; ain't nobody but me and the family seeing or using it (and usually just me). "Value" is a moving target; a decent $100 speaker to some, a $10k speaker that bests a $50k speaker to another.
 

IncognitOz

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Longevity/reliability (real or perceived) is another reason people buy expensive gear. My system cost a fortune but I got it for performance; ain't nobody but me and the family seeing or using it (and usually just me). "Value" is a moving target; a decent $100 speaker to some, a $10k speaker that bests a $50k speaker to another.
Loudspeakers are another matter. Loudspeakers are a mechanical acoustic transducer that is very difficult to examine and get an opinion on how it sounds just by looking at measurements.
The claim that expensive equipment breaks down less is also not true, I have seen a lot of high end equipment that breaks down no less and even more than equipment from main stream companies.

A high price has not been a measure of performance for a long time. But what to do, people don't accept it because it doesn't make sense to them.
 

DonH56

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Loudspeakers are another matter. Loudspeakers are a mechanical acoustic transducer that is very difficult to examine and get an opinion on how it sounds just by looking at measurements.
The claim that expensive equipment breaks down less is also not true, I have seen a lot of high end equipment that breaks down no less and even more than equipment from main stream companies.

A high price has not been a measure of performance for a long time. But what to do, people don't accept it because it doesn't make sense to them.
I am not disagreeing, just pointing out another reason folk buy expensive gear IME/IMO.

One of my most troublesome amplifiers was also the most expensive I have owned, an ARC D-79. OTOH a Bryston amp, not mine but used for a while, was one of the most reliable and expensive (not anymore, Bryston is fairly cheap relative to the stuff available today). It is a mixed bag, like everything else, and price does not necessarily correlate to much of anything.
 

MaxBuck

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I am not disagreeing, just pointing out another reason folk buy expensive gear IME/IMO.

One of my most troublesome amplifiers was also the most expensive I have owned, an ARC D-79. OTOH a Bryston amp, not mine but used for a while, was one of the most reliable and expensive (not anymore, Bryston is fairly cheap relative to the stuff available today). It is a mixed bag, like everything else, and price does not necessarily correlate to much of anything.
I've come to believe that so many of men's life choices for acquisition are predicated on "What the cool kids have." It manifests itself in cars, bicycles, motorcycles, housing, clothing (WTF is Robert Graham all about, anyway?) and, finally, audio equipment.

I've always felt a bit out of touch with the cool kids, and so my choices have tended to be idiosyncratic and, frankly, based on objective criteria to the extent I was able to ascertain them. Oddly enough, my wife of 44 years was and remains gorgeous, I am well-off without being wealthy, and I love my car, my home and my audio system. And I find that in being overjoyed with my life choices, other people now view me as a "cool kid." Who knew?

ETA: I'm especially pleased with my wife. Just wanted to reiterate that here. :p
 

NoxMorbis

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This is a review and detailed measurements of the Carver Raven 350 tube monoblock amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and (I think) costs US $4,750.
View attachment 225095

The 350 is not a bad looking amp. It has the same "orange peel" paint job of the previous Carver 275 amplifier I reviewed. At 42 pounds, the unit is pretty heavy. With all the weight in the back, the front handle is kind of useless when it comes to lifting it.
View attachment 225100
There is an XLR input but I believe it is for convenience and performs the same as RCA. I measured the DC resistance of the 4 and 8 ohm terminals (after the measurements) and realized they are both the same! Here I was switching back and forth between them. :( Anyway, measured DC resistance is 0.47 ohm. The 1-2 ohm tap has a lower DC resistance of about 0.3 ohm.

Unlike the 275 amplifier, the fuses did not blow and the amp survived my sweep tests. Bias is to be set at "80" on the front dial and that was the case when I powered on the unit.

There is a gain control but you are advised to set it to max which is what I did for testing.

There is a flip switch in the front which changes the amount of feedback. I tested the amp in both settings.

Here are the specs:
View attachment 225121

Carver 350 Measurements
Let's start with high-feedback performance using XLR input:
View attachment 225102
There is copious amount of distortion causing SINAD to be dominated by it. At 44.1, it ranks as the second worst amplifier ever tested:
View attachment 225104
It even performed worse than the Carver 275 which had a SINAD of 46. Switching to lower feedback doesn't make things that much worse:
View attachment 225106

Note that gain is reduced and therefore, volume will be different. This makes AB testing tricky. Here is a more detailed FFT showing the small difference between low and high feedback:
View attachment 225115
Notice how distortion is made up of both 2nd and 3rd harmonics so you can't make the argument that it is "2nd harmonic goodness."

As noted, RCA performance is the same as XLR:
View attachment 225107

Power supply 60 Hz noise in both cases causes severe intermodulation higher up in frequency. No amount of grounding impacted that so it is endemic tot he design.

Noise performance is decent for type of amp it is:

View attachment 225108

Intermodulation distortion rears its ugly head again in multitone test:
View attachment 225109

I don't know how anyone could hear more "detail" with such an amp where so much of the music signal will get lost in the distortion "grass."

Frequency response should be flat but it is not:
View attachment 225110
It naturally will have load dependency due to output impedance.

Let's see the power situation as we had serious shortfall in the 275 amp:
View attachment 225111

We don't meet the spec there but come closer with 8 ohm:
View attachment 225112

Back to 4 ohm, here is our 1% THD (double the company spec) max and burst power:
View attachment 225113
We seem to get the same shortfall. There is momentary reservoir though allowing the peak output to shoot way up. This was not always consistent though.

I also tested 2 ohm capability:
View attachment 225114

You are still current limited so no more power.

Changing the test frequency gives us the following power curves:
View attachment 225116

There is some instability at 20 Hz and fairly significant power drop. This points to power supply not having enough capacity as the lower frequency taxes it for longer period. Some drop occurs in every amplifier by the way so it is a matter of how much.

Finally, the amplifier warms up quickly and is pretty stable:
View attachment 225117
Testing occurred after this warm up.

Conclusions
What an upside down the world of audio is. Folks want to pay so much more to get dirtier sound. You want dirty? The Carver 350 gives it to you. Even at 5 watts there is copious amount of harmonic distortion. Power supply mixes with that at such high level that it creates its own spread of distortion. A video must come with these amps that hypnotizes you into thinking you are getting great sound....

I can't recommend the Carver 350 monoblock amplifier.
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"A video must come with these amps that hypnotizes you into thinking you are getting great sound...." LOL
 

solderdude

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Walk into any high-end shop or most 'demo rooms' and you will see tubes glowing, anaconda like cables everywhere. Sometimes on risers.
When you want to sell anything 'audiophool' or 'audiophile' no one will take the seller serious when they do not have tubes, huge class-A amps, turntables or exotic looking gear , nice dimmed lighting and comfy seats and they do not sell cables and snake-oil.
Imagine a high end shop with only a few dongles, cheap 100W switching amps and thin generic cables.

This + all the talk on forums changes the perception more than needed. I am quite certain that with the right demo music, good speakers the Carver will sound great in the right setting.

The above is all the hypnotizing the vast majority of audiophiles need and get plenty of.
 

anmpr1

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"A video must come with these amps that hypnotizes you into thinking you are getting great sound...." LOL

Don't confuse poor measurements, or otherwise less than SOA electrical performance, with someone's possible judgement of 'great' sound. Most of the low-level stuff that is measured can't be heard. And even if (and when) it can, if someone likes the results, that does not mean they are somehow hypnotized, or otherwise fooled. It is just a variance of sonic values. Simply, one person may not like what is heard, while another might enjoy it. Plus, it is possible that someone could like both, for different reasons.

When a person buys a tube amp they are likely not buying in order to obtain the best measured electrical performance they could otherwise get for their money. I think we can agree on that.

[Of course they might be fooling themselves into thinking they are actually hearing what is an 'imaginary' psychological response, not an authentic physiological (aural) one. That happens with SOA solid state gear, too. Or, with stuff that has no 'measure', such as passive cable risers and magic bricks.]

That said, in this case, the specs Carver claims are not quite delivered. So from that standpoint, it's buyer beware.

Historical anecdote: Back in the day, when Bob came out with his monster-sized Phase Linear, judgements were all over the place. Some said it made their loudspeakers sound great, others said it sounded horrible. Who was right?

When Bob 'hypnotized' (in this case the word fits, and is probably closer to the truth than not) the gang at Stereophile into (paraphrasing Peter Aczel) 'screwing up a totally fine SS amp into mimicking a ridiculous tube amp', they thought the SS amp was pretty wonderful. Then, they thought about it for a while, no doubt realized the monetary implications of what Bob did as it related to their business model, and quickly ran another review slamming the actual production amplifiers.

The more I live, the more I think Les Paul was correct when he quipped that most people hear with their eyes.
 
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