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Review and Measurements of SMSL M10 DAC & Amp

SMSL-Mandy

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@SMSL-Mandy Great to see your team chiming in. Always good to see manufacturers take a keen interest in how their products perform technically out in the "wild". *thumbs up*.
Thanks, we will do it better, we are purchasing APX-555 to be a referance.
 

Roen

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This is what I used to think too.
If you are not in the audiophile "know" (this forum alone basically) then you will think that different DAC chips really make a difference in how the DAC sounds or performs.
But now we have seen competant designs using literally every major DAC brand aswell as custom things like Chord FPGA's all perform similarly. Basically showing that any Modern DAC chip is totally fine and its all based on the implementation of said DAC.

When this M10 came out it peaked my interest aswell as it looked quite nice. But once again since I have my DX7 I'm not overly excited to purchase anything else and just wait to see if it gets reviewed here :)
Welcome to ASR

So you're both of the thought that, when both are implemented perfectly, with no flaws that impact SINAD / THD+N / other metrics, you'll see the same exact measurements between a ES9023 and a ES9038 Pro, because the DAC chip makes no difference whatsoever?

Is that the position you really want to take?

I'm not talking about audibility now, I'm just quoting your statements regarding measurements and performance.
 

confucius_zero

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when both are implemented perfectly
When that ever happens, a new discussion will arise. For now, it's just unicorn products until proven otherwise.

In photography, the megapixel myth was born from similar ideas when the very first "high megapixel" sensors came out, but were badly implemented on the rest of the camera's topology due to the tech of the time.
 

Roen

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When that ever happens, a new discussion will arise. For now, it's just unicorn products until proven otherwise.

In photography, the megapixel myth was born from similar ideas when the very first "high megapixel" sensors came out, but were badly implemented on the rest of the camera's topology due to the tech of the time.
I think we're getting pretty close to some of those, when the realized SINAD of one implementation is quite close to the theoretical max SNR of older DAC chips.

You're not only adding distortion into the mix, you're also assuming perfection on the older chip, and yet, the measured result of the newer DAC implementations approach these theoretical ideal conditions of older DAC chips.

And you're telling me DAC chip choice doesn't matter? This is obviously an extreme case for the sake of argument, but it is addressing a general (and IMO, shortsighted) statement.

Some concrete numbers:
ES9038Q2M March Audio DAC1 SINAD: -111 dB measured
ES9038Q2M March Audio DAC1 SNR: -117 dB measured
ES9023 SNR: -112 dB spec'ed.

No ES9023 DAC can ever exceed -112 SNR or SINAD.

EDIT: Meant ES9023.
 
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confucius_zero

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Not that it matters. It's just not a priority as there are issues clearly displayed by this website to be resolved before adding a star component. You're the one dealing with extremes.

The 3 great top chip examples so far were the oppo 205, Vmv D1 and the benchmark dac3. None really have reached advertised chip numbers yet. Pretty close is relative to your definition of such.
 

Roen

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Agreed, implementation is generally the evil that this website deals with the most.

However, because we have this website, we can then focus our discussion into the cream of the crop only, if one so chooses, because we have the data to do so.

That's one of the reasons I'm thankful such a website exists to navigate through the otherwise murky world of hifi audio.
 

Frank Dernie

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No ES9018 DAC can ever exceed -112 SNR or SINAD
Well I would argue that no DAC needs to, or any other bit of audio kit. My room has a background noise level around 30dB. If I had a DAC with SINAD of better than 112 dB (I do) and turn the volume of my amp up so I can just hear the noise (I have tried it) the volume setting would be completely unusable, even on well recorded classical music never mind standard "loudness war" pop because it would blow me out of the room and probably burn out my speakers.

Absolutely no need for a source to play actual music with that performance, it is a purely academic exercise and a waste of time and money IMO.
 

confucius_zero

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Agreed, implementation is generally the evil that this website deals with the most.

However, because we have this website, we can then focus our discussion into the cream of the crop only, if one so chooses, because we have the data to do so.

That's one of the reasons I'm thankful such a website exists to navigate through the otherwise murky world of hifi audio.

Same! Would a separate thread about Dac chip importance be more suitable for this discussion?

We can compare dac chip specs with the current measured implementations like you started doing.
 

Roen

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Well I would argue that no DAC needs to, or any other bit of audio kit. My room has a background noise level around 30dB. If I had a DAC with SINAD of 112 dB (I do) and turn the volume of my amp up so I can just hear the noise (I have tried it) the volume setting would be completely unusable, even on well recorded classical music never mind standard "loudness war" pop because it would blow me out of the room and probably burn out my speakers.

Absolutely no need for a source to play actual music with that performance, it is a purely academic exercise and a waste of time and money IMO.
Mind you, I make no statements of the audibility of the ES9023-based DACs vs. the ES9038Q2M-based DAC's. In fact, I specifically called out measurements only in my previous post.

I think most of us understand that DACs with at least -99 dB SINAD should prove audibly transparent relative to each other for an average to enthusiast listener. At least I hope so. In fact, the threshold is probably lower (in absolute value terms) than what I called out.
 

confucius_zero

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jackenhack

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One thing I don't understand is the attitude that "everything is good enough now, so no use to try to improve." For me, going down the rabbit hole and trying to improve equipment is half the fun, the other listening to music. I would preferably have a well implemented (and well measuring) unit, than wonky stuff that doesn't even muster CD-quality audio. Yes, I'm a gear head and love electronics and to strive for the best. It has never been a better time to get high quality headphone equipment, like the THX 789 and the SMSL SU-8 or Topping DACs. And for this, you pay a pittance (comparatively.)
I wish I could find an equally good speaker amplifier at a reasonable price. It looks like @amirm is on this path right now, so hopefully, there will be a good price amplifier available. If something hasn't been tested on this forum, I wont buy it. Why take the risk?
 

robyneil

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I returned my SMSL M10 because the headphone amp XLR output had audible distortion compared to I what had available to compare with (loxjie p20 and jds labs Atom). I did use the M10 XLR and RCA line outs to p20 and atom when comparing the headphone outputs from all 3.

Thanks @amirm for concrete numbers to compare against my subjective testing.
 

confucius_zero

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I don't understand is the attitude that "everything is good enough now, so no use to try to improve."

Explained:
Mostly has to do with personal threshold of sufficiency. Of course, each must decide on a time to move onto other things when the measured upgrade leans on the diminishing return of subjectively marginal improvements.

Applied:
While I appreciate small improvement, seeing huge growth in other aspects of audio (perhaps of speaker amps or even DACs of Atom/THX789 SINAD level) is more stimulating. As of now, both the JDS Atom or the THX789 await a DAC with a SINAD that matches theirs but as far as the SINADs of those amps go, we're pretty much reaching the end of that growth...
 

Tatteredmidnight

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Explained:
Mostly has to do with personal threshold of sufficiency. Of course, each must decide on a time to move onto other things when the measured upgrade leans on the diminishing return of subjectively marginal improvements.

Applied:
While I appreciate small improvement, seeing huge growth in other aspects of audio (perhaps of speaker amps or even DACs of Atom/THX789 SINAD level) is more stimulating. As of now, both the JDS Atom or the THX789 await a DAC with a SINAD that matches theirs but as far as the SINADs of those amps go, we're pretty much reaching the end of that growth...
There is always room for growth in other areas: cost and efficiency for example. If we hit the point of "satisfactory" performance at the high end, we can enjoy watching that level of performance permeate the various price points (as with the JDS Atom, THX 789, SMSL SU-8, Tone Board, Topping DX3 Pro, and many others). Previously unimaginable levels of performance at any price point are now available at various budget price points. To me, that's very exciting.

As for the M10, the performance is very disappointed, but SMSL seem to want to engage the community and improver their products. I respect the attitude, and as the owner if several of their devices, I sincerely hope they can improve their consistency and execution. I think they have the ability to become a world class player.
 
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