What is Alan Shaw on about? (is "coloration" unmeasurable?)

[Waxx]

Having now had a pair of Revel F228be for a while, I’m not sure I detect anything ’colored’ vs. my Harbeth SHL5+(AE). They are both easy to listen to for long periods of time.

Harbeth’s naming convention, however, is due for a reset.

The colouration is subtile in most cases, but they do eq the speakers to a house curve that is close to the harman curve while making the passive crossover. Alan admits that on the forum and says that is what sounds best for him and his customers. It's also visible in the site vist docu that i posted before, and that is done on measurements of the drivers, not on a guessing. The HL5+ is also slightly coloured like that, i listen to it a lot (don't own it, but the weekend home i use a lot has a pair as speakers) and i hear it. But it's so subtile it does not matter at all.

Some of the models are called monitor's but that is a bit marketing, because they are not. They are great middle of the road hifi speakers that are very easy to listen to for a very long time without ear fatigue (a problem with many very clean speakers) and without loosing to much fidelity. They are build by a very oldskool principle but very well build and very easy to drive with any amp that is powerfull enough. And yes, they are a bit overpriced and overhyped, but they are not bad at all I think, for the right purpose they are absolute great.

 

[ThoFi]

The HUG is *first and foremost* a MANUFACTURERS forum and heck, I've been pulled up by Alan on a good few occasions regarding this fact! It's there to promote and discuss audio matters from a Harbeth perspective and yes, technical aspects are discussed in a more general form so the non-tech users who read there can keep up.

As for measuring colourations, it depends where they are I reckon. Many port-driver resonances in the upper hundred Hertz region can be easy to see on the Klippel plots posted here and elsewhere and it seems most sub £/$1,000 pairs of active wonders are riddled with them! The 'waterfall' plots posted by HFN and now Amir can, if set up carefully, show resonances especially at upper mid and higher frequencies.

Having said that, I remember many years ago, that ALL speakers using the then famous KEF B200 bass driver, had a very slight cupped-hands 'awww' colouration to them, no matter how well the crossover was set up, even the much loved (by me) 104ab speaker. You only noticed it when compared instantly with other speakers, bextrene coned or not, but it was there. How this could be measured I really don't know as the main response of this driver was known and dealt with well by those who knew how to use it properly.

Yes, HUG is to promote and sell Harbeth speakers.
Technical aspects are discussed vague on HUG, with vague input from AS and are strict regulated an moderated.
AS said coloration can’t be measured. about this statement I asked for further information.
HUG claims to be citizen science.
Nothing more than a promotion platform.

 

[ahofer]

The colouration is subtile in most cases, but they do eq the speakers to a house curve that is close to the harman curve while making the passive crossover. Alan admits that on the forum and says that is what sounds best for him and his customers. It's also visible in the site vist docu that i posted before, and that is done on measurements of the drivers, not on a guessing. The HL5+ is also slightly coloured like that, i listen to it a lot (don't own it, but the weekend home i use a lot has a pair as speakers) and i hear it. But it's so subtile it does not matter at all.

Some of the models are called monitor's but that is a bit marketing, because they are not. They are great middle of the road hifi speakers that are very easy to listen to for a very long time without ear fatigue (a problem with many very clean speakers) and without loosing to much fidelity. They are build by a very oldskool principle but very well build and very easy to drive with any amp that is powerfull enough. And yes, they are a bit overpriced and overhyped, but they are not bad at all I think, for the right purpose they are absolute great.

So I have Harbeths in my apartment in NYC and Revels in my house in CT. The CT placement is not the best because it is a mid-century modern home with a weird layout (there are some photos in my thread on measuring second hand speakers with REW).

I’ve been really happy with the Harbeths. I can get completely lost in the music for long periods of time. Same with Revels. I think the Revels have the edge- a bit more bass presence, a bit more (horrible subjective stuff coming…) ease with dynamics. And they sound good all around our reflective and weirdly-shaped dining/entrance/living room cavern up here. The Harbeths are a more sensitive to placement and listening position. Which all makes sense, I think.

I’m interested to hear the Wharfedale Lintons. It was suggested elsewhere they have the wide-baffle midrange charm of Harbeth for a fraction of the cost. The guy who sold me the Revels was using them, but I didn’t get a chance to listen. His room was pretty small.

Harbeth prices have gotten a little out of hand, IMO. It’s a very well-optimized execution of an old design, obviously, but I’m not sure why it needs to be expensive other than that’s what the market will bear now.

 

[Willem]

Mind you, I have not looked at current prices, but the US importer has had a habit of making them rather more expensive in the US than in the UK and EU. I think he has the audiophile market in mind, for easy high margin sales.

 

[ahofer]

Mind you, I have not looked at current prices, but the US importer has had a habit of making them rather more expensive in the US than in the UK and EU. I think he has the audiophile market in mind, for easy high margin sales.

8000 for a pair of SHL5+

 

[ThoFi]

So I have Harbeths in my apartment in NYC and Revels in my house in CT. The CT placement is not the best because it is a mid-century modern home with a weird layout (there are some photos in my thread on measuring second hand speakers with REW).

I’ve been really happy with the Harbeths. I can get completely lost in the music for long periods of time. Same with Revels. I think the Revels have the edge- a bit more bass presence, a bit more (horrible subjective stuff coming…) ease with dynamics. And they sound good all around our reflective and weirdly-shaped dining/entrance/living room cavern up here. The Harbeths are a more sensitive to placement and listening position. Which all makes sense, I think.

I’m interested to hear the Wharfedale Lintons. It was suggested elsewhere they have the wide-baffle midrange charm of Harbeth for a fraction of the cost. The guy who sold me the Revels was using them, but I didn’t get a chance to listen. His room was pretty small.

Harbeth prices have gotten a little out of hand, IMO. It’s a very well-optimized execution of an old design, obviously, but I’m not sure why it needs to be expensive other than that’s what the market will bear now.

I also experienced that the SHL5+ 40An is sensitive in placement. I always struggle with soundstage and high frequencies.
Now I also a have very cheap chinese co-axial speaker. No problems with the aforementioned issues.
Nice sound at a fraction of the high price of the Harbeth.

 

[lashto]

AS is marketing-heay and vague.

he is there as a salesman, isn't he?
@ahofer was in problem-solving mode but I seriously doubt that AS had any such intentions. Looks like he was just trying some psychology: reassure the guy that someone cares about it, is there to hear him and is trying to make things right. A sort of "holding hands solution". And he might even be right, ear-fatigue can also be a psychological and/or temporary issue.

If he really wanted to solve the problem, he'd have sent a tech-expert to that guy's house. Yes, the whole thing kinda sucks and he's just pretending to be helpful. OTOH, nobody has infinite budgets.

P.S.
I heard Harbeth speakers a few times and liked them. All those BBC-heritage speakers seem to produce a sort of extra 'musical air'. Or I just read too many reviews and it was all in my imagination..

 

[ThoFi]

he is there as a salesman, isn't he?
@ahofer was in problem-solving mode but I seriously doubt that AS had any such intentions. Looks like he was just trying some psychology: reassure the guy that someone cares about it, is there to hear him and is trying to make things right. A sort of "holding hands solution". And he might even be right, ear-fatigue can also be a psychological and/or temporary issue.

If he really wanted to solve the problem, he'd have sent a tech-expert to that guy's house. Yes, the whole thing kinda sucks and he's just pretending to be helpful. OTOH, nobody has infinite budgets.

P.S.
I heard Harbeth speakers a few times and liked them. All those BBC-heritage speakers seem to produce a sort of extra 'musical air'. Or I just read to many reviews and it was all in my imagination..

Indeed he is.
BBC heritage is another marketing BS, because the Harbeth models have nothing in common with them.

 

[ahofer]

I seriously doubt that AS had any such intentions.

Agree. He is balancing his scientific instincts with keeping up some kind of ”magic” for his audiophile audience and high sticker prices. His speakers have wide baffles, his patented driver material, and some painstaking cabinet-damping and crossover design. He harps on the materials and the “lossy” damping as differentiators, but I have my doubts, they are just one of many routes to the same end. And I do believe a set of measurements like Erin does (I like the response at different SPLs, which I don’t see Amir do) would tell you everything you need to know to help that unfortunate fellow in the thread.

They are assembled and tested in England. All that justifies a somewhat higher price, but that M40 price just makes me laugh.

 

[lashto]

Indeed he is.
BBC heritage is another marketing BS, because the Harbeth models have nothing in common with them.

Probably. I did not follow the latest developments, it's just that all the Harbeth/Spendor/Falcon that I saw or heard kinda had a BBC LS3/5 'aura' for me.
And that is probably what their marketing is aiming for. So, they are doing at least one thing right

 

[DSJR]

Harbeth prices have gotten a little out of hand, IMO. It’s a very well-optimized execution of an old design, obviously, but I’m not sure why it needs to be expensive other than that’s what the market will bear now.

I think you need to look at Harbeth's immediate competition - and it's NOT necessarily Revel, KEF and similar, let alone our favourite active pro brands!

First Spendor put their prices up after the refinancing of several or more years back and the SP1 replacement (Classic 1/2?) is now nearly two thousand quid dearer than the SHL5+XD (stupid convoluted name I agree) - I was told they no longer make their own drivers now either and buy them in, the response anomalies shown in various tests more due to driver issues rather than crossover alignment. Graham Audio wave 'Me Too' at this market with a range of BBC resurrections updated I gather by ex-Spendor owner Derek Hughes and again, prices are high. Rogers have come back with apparently faithful reproductions of the deliberately compromised (for BBC use) LS5/9 and the over-hyped LS3/5A and prices of these are mad and higher again last I looked than the Harbeth P3-XD and 30.2-XD. It's the Rogers name that sells them. Falcon have also joined the fray, making B110 bass drivers that appear to mimic the worst KEF samples of the mid 80's (I gather KEF had to change the surround, making the 1 - 1.5khz peak and dip greater than ever and ruining all the speakers still using this driver - Linn Kan and Isobarik, LS3/5A's of that immediate era and so on. Check the Stereophile response of the Falcon 3/5A, allowing for the 3dB or so added to the 100Hz approx. frequency. The rest is pure mid 80's LS3/5A pre-redesign -

Here's the Harbeth P3ESR measured by Stereophile - bass bump again is the measurement system as discussed in the review text.

So, in this context, Harbeth seem good value and better and more consistently realised in my opinion than any of their competition. The profits appear to be well invested in their future as well as they poached Spendor's long term designer (who was shocked reportedly at how better organised and equipped Harbeth was), the chap who co-developed the interesting 'radial' cone material is there developing it further (don't underestimate this cone material, it's bloody good tested raw it seems, even before being fitted to a speaker) and there's at least one graduate techie there too beavering away in the background. The claim is that the money is there, this current XD series cannot really be taken further without major re-design, so I suspect that when this brand does finally make its move, it'll be a major one. there have been HUG threads about DSP and how much access should the end have and now a long thread about streaming. Being a little cynical, I could suggest that the brand's design team are looking at a major leap into actives with digital interfaces as per KEF and recent Dynaudio models. All guesswork on my part but the market is slowly looking that way I feel as more younger enthusiasts wish to move up from Sonos and other small streaming speaker interfaces. Our legacy separates market may well fade away with us, leaving a mountain of landfill separates no doubt as today when things become too expensive to repair.

 

[lashto]

Agree. He is balancing his scientific instincts with keeping up some kind of ”magic” for his audiophile audience and high sticker prices. His speakers have wide baffles, his patented driver material, and some painstaking cabinet-damping and crossover design. He harps on the materials and the “lossy” damping as differentiators, but I have my doubts, they are just one of many routes to the same end. And I do believe a set of measurements like Erin does (I like the response at different SPLs, which I don’t see Amir do) would tell you everything you need to know to help that unfortunate fellow in the thread.

They are assembled and tested in England. All that justifies a somewhat higher price, but that M40 price just makes me laugh.

'magic' also sells pretty well
And quite a few of those tech-heroes are/were just marketing wizards. That's how 'stuff' works. But one less 'hero' should not prevent you from enjoying those Harbets.

 

[ThoFi]

I think you need to look at Harbeth's immediate competition - and it's NOT necessarily Revel, KEF and similar, let alone our favourite active pro brands!

First Spendor put their prices up after the refinancing of several or more years back and the SP1 replacement (Classic 1/2?) is now nearly two thousand quid dearer than the SHL5+XD (stupid convoluted name I agree) - I was told they no longer make their own drivers now either and buy them in, the response anomalies shown in various tests more due to driver issues rather than crossover alignment. Graham Audio wave 'Me Too' at this market with a range of BBC resurrections updated I gather by ex-Spendor owner Derek Hughes and again, prices are high. Rogers have come back with apparently faithful reproductions of the deliberately compromised (for BBC use) LS5/9 and the over-hyped LS3/5A and prices of these are mad and higher again last I looked than the Harbeth P3-XD and 30.2-XD. It's the Rogers name that sells them. Falcon have also joined the fray, making B110 bass drivers that appear to mimic the worst KEF samples of the mid 80's (I gather KEF had to change the surround, making the 1.5khz peak greater than ever and ruining all the speakers still using this driver - Linn Kan and Isobarik, LS3/5A's of that immediate era and so on.

So, in this context, Harbeth seem good value and better and more consistently realised in my opinion than any of their competition. The profits appear to be well invested in their future as well as they poached Spendor's long term designer (who was shocked reportedly at how better organised and equipped Harbeth was), the chap who co-developed the interesting 'radial' cone material is there developing it further (don't underestimate this cone material, it's bloody good tested raw it seems, even before being fitted to a speaker) and there's at least one graduate techie there too beavering away in the background. The claim is that the money is there, this current XD series cannot really be taken further without major re-design, so I suspect that when this brand does finally make its move, it'll be a major one. there have been HUG threads about DSP and how much access should the end have and now a long thread about streaming. Being a little cynical, I could suggest that the brand's design team are looking at a major leap into actives with digital interfaces as per KEF and recent Dynaudio models. All guesswork on my part but the market is slowly looking that way I feel as more younger enthusiasts wish to move up from Sonos and other small streaming speaker interfaces. Our legacy separates market may well fade away with us, leaving a mountain of landfill separates no doubt as today when things become too expensive to repair.

What about Mission 770, MoFi Sourcepoint 10, Wharfedale Linton..
cheaper options

Sorry, but the comment about the „shocked former Spendor designer“.
AS said that on HUG. What else would he say..
Marketing BS????

 

[MattHooper]

I’ve been really happy with the Harbeths. I can get completely lost in the music for long periods of time. Same with Revels. I think the Revels have the edge- a bit more bass presence, a bit more (horrible subjective stuff coming…) ease with dynamics.

Nobody should have to apologize for trying to put an experience in to words, whether it's what they see, feel or hear. It's what we humans do. It's why we have language.

And they sound good all around our reflective and weirdly-shaped dining/entrance/living room cavern up here. The Harbeths are a more sensitive to placement and listening position. Which all makes sense, I think.

I'm curious about your experience with the Harbeth re the Ravel speakers.

As I've mentioned before Harbeth is one of my favorite speaker brands and I owned the SuperHL5 plus for a while. Lovely speakers, but for some reason I struggled to get much soundstage depth. Every speaker I've had in my room would cast a deeper soundstage, often sounding like some objects are "waaay" back beyond the wall behind them. But the SuperHL5 seemed to consistently cast a fore-shortened soundstage, with the images pulled up closer. Not egregiously so, but it was distinct.

How do you find the Harbeth compare to the Revel in that area?

 

[Waxx]

View attachment 245931
8000 for a pair of SHL5+

Prices in the EU:

but this is their top of the line speaker, the HL5+ is a lot cheaper

And that (Durch) shop is not known as the cheapest arround, you probally can find them cheaper online... I know (because i ordered it for her) that my ex paid 5300€ for a pair of HL5+ in a french shop (not online) a year ago.

 

[ahofer]

Nobody should have to apologize for trying to put an experience in to words, whether it's what they see, feel or hear. It's what we humans do. It's why we have language.




I'm curious about your experience with the Harbeth re the Ravel speakers.

As I've mentioned before Harbeth is one of my favorite speaker brands and I owned the SuperHL5 plus for a while. Lovely speakers, but for some reason I struggled to get much soundstage depth. Every speaker I've had in my room would cast a deeper soundstage, often sounding like some objects are "waaay" back beyond the wall behind them. But the SuperHL5 seemed to consistently cast a fore-shortened soundstage, with the images pulled up closer. Not egregiously so, but it was distinct.

How do you find the Harbeth compare to the Revel in that area?

I haven't felt such a shortcoming and I'm hesitant to speak to it in such different setups. The Revels are in a bigger room, further apart, so the overall presentation has a larger feel here. But I've always been impressed with the relatively large presentation of the Harbeths. There's lots of room and a live end behind them and the brass and winds in orchestras, for instance, are credibly towards the rear of the stage.

 

[DSJR]

What about Mission 770, MoFi Sourcepoint 10, Wharfedale Linton..
cheaper options

Sorry, but the comment about the „shocked former Spendor designer“.
AS said that on HUG. What else would he say..
Marketing BS????

Oh FFS! I know the ex Spendor chap a little from his posts elsewhere and his revelations, while not scandalous in any way, confirm what I said above as regards the way Spendor basically took from a 'corporate' parts bin to bring out new models, the results quite often being a bit 'peaky' and nothing like the slushy-toned boxes Derek introduced or the sublime and honest for the times original models father Spencer designed (I thought ther world of Spencer as he had endless patience and a surprisingly open mind with young over-eager-to-;learn peeps like me asking multitudes of questions...

Mission 770 (2022)? Are you serious? Sourcepoint 10 almost certainly won't sell in the UK due to price and bulky looks and the Linton Heritage doesn't sell well either in the UK I was told, as nobody's interested in retro-looking models (I wanted to hear the JBL L100 Classic but after the dealer show, I was the only one expressing an interest and the order was cancelled as I wasn't a customer). You hardly see Revel here either these days apart from one or two agency collectors who advertise (they 'can get' the products if you order), this price range is limited to makers like Dynaudio, Monitor Audio and smaller PMC models I believe (Dynaudio domestic ranges remind me of a Europe version of Revel in the US but maybe more varied in balance depending on model). The far eastern made Sonus Fabers didn't really gel with the UK market either. Focal may have fans with many Naim dealers perhaps.

In the UK, I suspect Harbeth do a little bit of business, the majority of it (used to be) in the far east... You won't believe me, but so many people who finally get to hear some Harbeths here usually heave a sigh of relief as they start experiencing the music content and not a 'HiFi' presentation all 'deeeetail' and pr@t! As with much of the UK separates industry now, it's all with older people, usually male

P.S. I baulk at the 40.3 price too, as my beloved active ATC 100ASL's aren't so different in price in classic form including stands and in my book, don't give anything away in terms of 'sonic believability.' Sure you can probably get 'better' for less, but we're talking dealer bought speakers here, not mail order from a pro distributor. AS claims the 40 models cost a fortune to make in terms of hours and not having seen them being made up, I can't possibly argue with what he says.

 

[Chromatischism]

Should be one of those two, yes.

But it's not necessarily the issue there. The problem might also come from the guy's ears: i.e. nothing changed in the sound of that room/system but he's getting older and has a tinnitus-like problem.

Pretty much impossible to diagnose such things, especially from afar. But AS's responses are indeed too 'marketing-heavy'.

Reminds me of John Lane at Chane. Downplays measurements, claims all kinds of other mystical elements at play, uses over-engineered, fancy language in his posts that the acolytes certainly don't comprehend, but follow anyway. Anyway I hope Harbeth is better than that.

 

[mSpot]

As with much of the UK separates industry now, it's all with older people, usually male

That isn't limited to the UK. It's been a worldwide phenomenon for decades.

 

[ThoFi]

Oh FFS! I know the ex Spendor chap a little from his posts elsewhere and his revelations, while not scandalous in any way, confirm what I said above as regards the way Spendor basically took from a 'corporate' parts bin to bring out new models, the results quite often being a bit 'peaky' and nothing like the slushy-toned boxes Derek introduced or the sublime and honest for the times original models father Spencer designed (I thought ther world of Spencer as he had endless patience and a surprisingly open mind with young over-eager-to-;learn peeps like me asking multitudes of questions...

Mission 770 (2022)? Are you serious? Sourcepoint 10 almost certainly won't sell in the UK due to price and bulky looks and the Linton Heritage doesn't sell well either in the UK I was told, as nobody's interested in retro-looking models (I wanted to hear the JBL L100 Classic but after the dealer show, I was the only one expressing an interest and the order was cancelled as I wasn't a customer). You hardly see Revel here either these days apart from one or two agency collectors who advertise (they 'can get' the products if you order), this price range is limited to makers like Dynaudio, Monitor Audio and smaller PMC models I believe (Dynaudio domestic ranges remind me of a Europe version of Revel in the US but maybe more varied in balance depending on model). The far eastern made Sonus Fabers didn't really gel with the UK market either. Focal may have fans with many Naim dealers perhaps.

In the UK, I suspect Harbeth do a little bit of business, the majority of it (used to be) in the far east... You won't believe me, but so many people who finally get to hear some Harbeths here usually heave a sigh of relief as they start experiencing the music content and not a 'HiFi' presentation all 'deeeetail' and pr@t! As with much of the UK separates industry now, it's all with older people, usually male

P.S. I baulk at the 40.3 price too, as my beloved active ATC 100ASL's aren't so different in price in classic form including stands and in my book, don't give anything away in terms of 'sonic believability.' Sure you can probably get 'better' for less, but we're talking dealer bought speakers here, not mail order from a pro distributor. AS claims the 40 models cost a fortune to make in terms of hours and not having seen them being made up, I can't possibly argue with what he says.

Sorry in advance to be offensive (and English is not my first language)
Your post and I guess many comments on forums, are only assumptions. Worst on a forum such as HUG, thats regulated and moderated.

You refer to comments about the Spendor chap on other platforms!? Not very trustful.
You talk about the sales and opportunities of the UK market. MoFi sourcepoint 10 wouldn’t sale…? Why? Any facts?
You suspect the sales of Harbeth at different markets, UK, far east? Any facts?
About the 40.3 price you refer to a comment of AS? Really!? Why should it cost a fortune to make them? What is soooo different of the BOM between his models?

It makes me scratch my head seeing people with thousands of comments, and with the same comment all the time.
e.g. there is a guy on HUG who repeatedly comments (promotes) Hypex based amps, Yamaha amps and RME DAC. Every time the same without ever making (and share) any different experiences, progress.

Its worst in my opinion when people spread rumors and lies and make their comment on every others single post.