Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[dlaloum]

About the minidsp use with AVR subouts, I am curious about why no one seems to have concern about its 2V max spec (for the 2X4HD) when so many worry about the AVR's 75 dB SINAD at 2 V in non prep mode. You would think that for subwoofers, one would want at least 4 V if only for headroom? Not that I think 2 V is a real concern, just being curious.

Well, active subwoofers, that requirement depends on the specifications for their onboard amp, and passive subs, similarly for the outboard amp...

So really no different from standard external amps - 2V RMS does not seem to me to be a constraint, for any amp that I have ever used... (and given pro standards are 1.4V, and domestic consumer standards are 1V.... I have to say that amps that require more than 2V for rated power are really outliers... and seem to me to be substantially limiting their market!)

 

[GabrielPhoto]

For more than one subwoofer with Dirac Live you need DLBC which is supposed to come in 2024 to the Denon receivers as yet another add-on you have to buy as compared to Audyssey XT32. Unclear what the price will be.

as yet another OPTION we get with the 3800h. Compared to the XT32 means nothing as that would imply you get as good results with it. After running my 4 subs with XT32 testing the 3800 the results were underwhelming.

 

[Trell]

as yet another OPTION we get with the 3800h. Compared to the XT32 means nothing as that would imply you get as good results with it. After running my 4 subs with XT32 testing the 3800 the results were underwhelming.

Sure, no DRC is perfect.

As for DLBC on Denon I consider it vaporware as it’s supposed to be released sometime in 2024.

 

[Dj7675]

as yet another OPTION we get with the 3800h. Compared to the XT32 means nothing as that would imply you get as good results with it. After running my 4 subs with XT32 testing the 3800 the results were underwhelming.

Underwhelmed due to lack of bass, poor measurements, poor integration of center/sub or r/l and sub? If using the app, if you use a house curve, you have to bump up your sub trim levels about the same amount you boost you created with your room curve in the sub region. This is something you can see if you do an "after" measurement with REW.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Sure, no DRC is perfect.

As for DLBC on Denon I consider it vaporware as it’s supposed to be released sometime in 2024.

Maybe it is maybe is not. Your guess is worth as much as anyone else's

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Underwhelmed due to lack of bass, poor measurements, poor integration of center/sub or r/l and sub? If using the app, if you use a house curve, you have to bump up your sub trim levels about the same amount you boost you created with your room curve in the sub region. This is something you can see if you do an "after" measurement with REW.

This is not my first Denon, I know all the tweaks needed due to the "thin" curve but there is more to it with the 3800h. In any case, I sent it back. I prefer the RSZ50 I was testing side by side.

 

[Trell]

Maybe it is maybe is not. Your guess is worth as much as anyone else's

It’s Denon themselves that says DLBC is supposed to be released sometime in 2024. So buy an 3800 now and perhaps wait two years for it. Not much of an OPTION, I’d say.

I think Denon dropped the ball on this by not offering DLBC at the same time as DL.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

It’s Denon themselves that says DLBC is supposed to be released sometime in 2024. So buy an 3800 now and perhaps wait two years for it. Not much of an OPTION, I’d say.

I think Denon dropped the ball on this by not offering DLBC at the same time as DL.

I didn't question the release date I questioned you calling it vapoware. We won't know until 2024 is gone if it was vaporware or not. That was my point..
But yeah, reading an AVR with a feature coming 2 years later is less than exciting...specially if it's not free

 

[beaRA]

That twenty year old YPAO room EQ is far less advanced than Audyssey XT32 or Dirac Live. That said, not all like the effects of room EQ, but some years ago Denon made a $20 app that could be used to set the upper frequency of correction for Audyssey, so one could apply roomEq only in the bass region where it's needed the most.

That's part of what I'm getting at. Modern room correction systems are extremely flexible.

 

[Rockman2]

This is not my first Denon, I know all the tweaks needed due to the "thin" curve but there is more to it with the 3800h. In any case, I sent it back. I prefer the RSZ50 I was testing side by side.

GabrielPhoto Can you do a pre amp mode with the RZ50. Disable the amps for the LCR channels and just use the pre outs with a 3 channel amp?

 

[GabrielPhoto]

GabrielPhoto Can you do a pre amp mode with the RZ50. Disable the amps for the LCR channels and just use the pre outs with a 3 channel amp?

No preamp mode but with a SINAD of 90-96db and how cool and quiet it runs, I don't see a need for it luckily.

 

[tsammyc]

I would not deny myself the benefits of a subwoofer and room correction for a SINAD increase I probably won't notice. You say you are coming from a 20 year old Yamaha AVR, so I'm not sure you've experienced good room correction properly set up.

Agreed for home theater usage. My 20 year old Yamaha's YPAO was admittedly primitive, but I did carefully manually correct the subwoofer output with a real time analyzer (TrueRTA) about 17 years ago, a professional microphone and an ancient equalizer called a Behringer Bass Feedback Destroyer, implementing a house curve of my preference. I also have a more modern Yamaha receiver in another room. So, I'm not ignorant of the benefits of good room correction.

I'm quite excited about the new RoomEQ of the new receivers affecting the higher frequencies and there is no question that I would use RoomEQ for home theater sound. The issue is my listening of 2 channel music as I already have a bit perfect streamer and a 115+ SINAD DAC. Since the 3800 has a low performing DAC, I will likely be using the streamer to connect via analog to the 3800's pre-amp/amp section and some here have suggested that I will get around a 96 SINAD that way, which is good enough for me. I will be pleasantly surprised if crispness of the 3800's sound is acceptable after I turn on RoomEQ, but remain doubtful.

 

[tsammyc]

We all know it is worse than the 3700AKM based on measurements but likely won't sound worse for most people. There is no published measurements for the 3700/4700 PCM to compare with the 3800.

I'm pretty sensitive to degraded a cappella vocals, so I might be among the few. My path will be WIIM Mini->optical->Topping D90->analog->X3800H->KEF speakers. Would the X3800H be worse than having a X3700H in the chain? I'm not sure how to interpret all of Amir's measurements especially how much SINAD would be degraded by the preamp input to output volume control.

 

[tsammyc]

That twenty year old YPAO room EQ is far less advanced than Audyssey XT32 or Dirac Live. That said, not all like the effects of room EQ, but some years ago Denon made a $20 app that could be used to set the upper frequency of correction for Audyssey, so one could apply roomEq only in the bass region where it's needed the most.

The issue from my understanding is that once I enable Audyssey, the X3800H will take my analog 2 channel input and redigitize it, process and then output it thought is lower quality DAC

 

[tsammyc]

I would have agreed with you in the past, when I used Audyssey XT32 - now with Dirac Live, I find that not to be the case - the setup sounds better with Dirac, than in Pure Direct.

I did (during the change over) compare the old AVR to the new one - and in pure direct, they sounded identical (to my ears)... but the old one on 2 channel stereo music, was consistently better in pure direct than in Audyssey XT32, the new AVR is consistently better on 2ch music with Dirac active than in Pure direct.

There are obviously numerous potential caveats - but for myself, I have found that Dirac has put forward a very very convincing case for its benefits, regardless of the material being listened to. - The key Caveat, is that I was using Audyssey on a 2013 vintage AVR - there was no option to turn off the MRC default - and that 2kHz BBC "dip" that is built in (supposed to compensate for common issues in crossovers between midrange and tweeter) - really impacts on the midrange - BADLY. - Current D&M AVR's with the associated apps, give you the option to disable MRC... and my experience MIGHT have been different.

In your case - assuming a D&M AVR, have you turned off MRC before comparing the EQ vs the nonEQ for 2 ch music?
Also - have you tried to use the EQ, without any target curve... (that requires matching the target curve to the measured curve as closely as possible, so processing is then limited to impulse/phase and frequency EQ is minimised) - that would allow a comparison of the processing without altering the voicing of the system... this is essential, as both Audyssey and Dirac do both things, processing and voicing - and if you want to know the efficacy of the processing, you need to take the voicing part of the equation off the table!

Thanks for a most interesting view. Assuming I don't return the X3800H when I get it, I will certainly try turning off MRC and any curve. My issue in the past has been listening to a cappella voices and jazz strings, where I notice the most difference in crispness. If I keep the X3800H, perhaps there will be a bump up in quality after installing Dirac Live next year, but I have some doubts given the lower quality DAC. Perhaps the RZ50's limited supply outside the US is due to chip shortage so it will be interesting to see what is in the RZ70.

 

[peng]

How did you test? Did you run MSO and check multiple positions? Did you compare the results between minidsp with optimal delay vs SubEQ HT delay? What did you get?

I don't have 2 subs, but for my 1 sub I needed to adjust the delay significantly to improve integration with the mains.

Sorry, that's more than 5 years ago and at the time I had never heard of MSO. I can't remember the details other than I played around with it a lot, and following instructions available on the internet as well as minidsp's application notes. Tried it by itself, as well as using it together with XT32 SubEQHT. In the end, I thought there was too much work doing those manual adjustments to gain may be marginally better results in certain ways. I finally got fed up with the extra interconnects laying around; and realized that since Audyssey got me very satisfactory results integrating with not only the mains but also the surround speakers, there was no point adding further complexity to my setup. I still have the mini in its box and I hope to find time to play with MSO eventually, not that I would use it for the same reasons but am curious to see what MSO can bring to the table. I may also upgrade it for use with DL when DLBC becomes available. I don't doubt in other setups, it may be a very useful device to integrate subs/mains better than simply running Audyssey but I also believe that in many cased, like in mine, XT32 SubEQ HT plus some minor tweak with the App/Ratbuddyssey or the MultEQ X will suffice.

 

[peng]

This is not my first Denon, I know all the tweaks needed due to the "thin" curve but there is more to it with the 3800h. In any case, I sent it back. I prefer the RSZ50 I was testing side by side.

That's as expected, just read the numerous reviews on the internet, including even those on Amazon and we can see the different views. There are always going to be people who prefer the RZ50, and others prefer the X3800H. Preference is just preference, whether it is audio or video, there are always two camps, one prefer to just go by what they perceive, others go by specs and measurements, and then there is another camp where people consider both. The RZ50 does seem to do well for both camps, but having seen the test results, if I had one I would just use it as prepro and say no thanks to the internal amps. I would be comfortable using the Denon's internal amps for some of my surround speakers (but I don't have to).

 

[delta76]

That's as expected, just read the numerous reviews on the internet, including even those on Amazon and we can see the different views. There are always going to be people who prefer the RZ50, and others prefer the X3800H. Preference is just preference, whether it is audio or video, there are always two camps, one prefer to just go by what they perceive, others go by specs and measurements, and then there is another camp where people consider both. The RZ50 does seem to do well for both camps, but having seen the test results, if I had one I would just use it as prepro and say no thanks to the internal amps. I would be comfortable using the Denon's internal amps for some of my surround speakers (but I don't have to).

You can't trust people - and I meant average Joe - for reviews of audio equipment. For most of them, price, look, features, ease of use take much more effect than the audio quality alone.
For 90% if not more people, x3800h and RZ50 will sound the same, but they still hear the difference

 

[tjcinnamon]

No DLBC but if one is comfortable adding a minidsp to combine subs with a good response either manually or with something like MSO, then the RZ50 would be a great option. But the RZ50 as is, I would consider it too incomplete. Others may of course disagree (which is fine of course). The door remains open if Onkyo will walk through it.... and release their higher end units and beat Denon/Marantz both in total price with Dirac/DLBC. It would be great for consumers if they did.
Edit: And I agree, never buy a unit on a future feature. But it based on what it can do now. Too many times companies, for a variety of reasons, do not deliver.

Doesn’t DLBC do more than just align and EQ the subs? Doesn’t do some “magic” with the subs and the mains?

If so, what specifically does it do? I use MSO right now. But I’m considering a MiniDSP flex to monkey with my mains

 

[Dj7675]

Doesn’t DLBC do more than just align and EQ the subs? Doesn’t do some “magic” with the subs and the mains?

If so, what specifically does it do? I use MSO right now. But I’m considering a MiniDSP flex to monkey with my mains

Here is what it does…

Bass Control - Dirac

Dirac Live Bass Control leverages all-pass filters, machine learning and AI, to optimize your subwoofers beyond equalization (EQ).

www.dirac.com

It would be very interesting to have both and attempt to compare DLBC and MSO.