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Advice needed: classical music, budget ~$30k

McGillroy

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Strauss SE-MF-4 should be within budget. Passive mastering monitors. Good enough for Sony mastering studios and probably pretty nice with the right amps driving them.
 
OP
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Thanks, @Laserjock and @Kal Rubinson. I'll try to seek out some MCH experiences along the way. And thanks @McGillroy and @Ifrit for the tips. I'll check the ATC 150 and Strauss out.

Why, @617, do you think I might be happier with smaller solutions? I am a bit worried--maybe entirely unfairly--about if smaller solutions will reproduce the sense of immersive bigness I am after. My headphones are great for precision, but they leave a lot to be desired when it comes, say, to Wagner or Shostakovitch.
 

MarcT

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For classical music, I would check out these. I've heard these at AXPONA playing symphonic music and it was quite impressive.


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617

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Thanks, @Laserjock and @Kal Rubinson. I'll try to seek out some MCH experiences along the way. And thanks @McGillroy and @Ifrit for the tips. I'll check the ATC 150 and Strauss out.

Why, @617, do you think I might be happier with smaller solutions? I am a bit worried--maybe entirely unfairly--about if smaller solutions will reproduce the sense of immersive bigness I am after. My headphones are great for precision, but they leave a lot to be desired when it comes, say, to Wagner or Shostakovitch.
If it's full range, and it's loud, and wonderfully coherent, and harmonizes with your room, the physical size doesn't matter. Listen for yourself and find out. The bass output of the bigger monitors from Genelec, Neumann and also ATC are significant, with 10 inch or larger woofers with lots of power behind them, big motors with tons of excursion and dsp behind everything. Amir characterized the bass of on kh420 as 'frightening' and excessive and my experience with modern sota woofers confirms that.

The one advantage of a smaller speaker and subs is that you get smoother in room bass response. This has been discussed and studied at length. You also get the advantage of a potentially more agreeable appearance if you find big speakers unsightly. Make no mistake, multi subs are the way to the best bass in room.
 

Digby

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The one advantage of a smaller speaker and subs is that you get smoother in room bass response. This has been discussed and studied at length. You also get the advantage of a potentially more agreeable appearance if you find big speakers unsightly. Make no mistake, multi subs are the way to the best bass in room.
Better still would be large(ish) mains + subs, the OP certainly has the budget for this (whether his has an accommodating room plan or significant other, is another question). To put it bluntly, I just don't think you get the same size of sound or punch with smaller mains, subs or no. The presentation is just different. The argument has been had a lot elsewhere on this forum, so I don't think we should have it here, but I do think there is *something* to the relation that people notice between size of speaker and size of the sound produced.

Also, if you are buying small speakers only to put them on stands, you might as well just buy floorstanders and get extra drivers and cabinet volume in the same footprint, no?
 

Adi777

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Kii Three BXT (to lifeless he said)
What is mean? "Boring" sound? I know, that for some people Kii Three sound sharp or rough in high or medium tones, I don't remember exactly.
 
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xaviescacs

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Keith_W

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If you are going to spend $30k on a system it would be well worth your while spending a weekend in LA or SF auditioning different systems. Before you do that, I suggest you do the following:

- Call the dealer to make an appointment. Do not simply turn up.
- Ask if the dealer has what you require in stock, and ask for them to set it up for you.
- Find out if they have a listening room that is the approximate size of yours, and ask for the system to be set up there.
- Make sure they would be able to play your music in your selected format, e.g. you might want to bring FLAC's on USB.
- Ask if the speaker can be demonstrated at your house and make sure you agree on the cost before they do so.

As for multi-channel classical, it could certainly be an option depending on your preference for performers. I personally prefer older recordings (think Bruno Walter, Carlos Kleiber, Otto Klemperer, Harnoncourt, etc) which are mostly 2 channel. If you like the newer stuff it might be worth the investment.
 

Digby

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As for multi-channel classical, it could certainly be an option depending on your preference for performers. I personally prefer older recordings (think Bruno Walter, Carlos Kleiber, Otto Klemperer, Harnoncourt, etc) which are mostly 2 channel. If you like the newer stuff it might be worth the investment.
That is a good point. It is probably also worth mentioning that if you are mainly into the older stuff, that may change your choice of speaker, just because the limited fidelity of those recordings might have you prefer a different (more forgiving?) speaker from the higher fidelity and differently mic'd up, more recent recordings.
 
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FrantzM

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Hi

The speakers you're looking at ( although you weren't specific which Genelec) are all good. The room could be big and it opens on another room. A few questions:

How far will you seat from the speakers plane? ) In passing seat at a good distance, say >1 meter from the wall in your back)
How willing are you to work with the equipment you will have? Audio systems are rarely set and forget. For the most part you must work at these, to make them sound right or good.
What leeway t do you have to place the speakers and subwoofers, yes subwoofers as in plural in your room?
Do you have an idea of the ancillary equipment you will use? Amplifiers, DSP, etc? It doesn't have to be complicated, Rube-Goldberg type, these days you can find boxes capable of performing serious DSP in a small/.convenient package, some systems provide excellent room correction and a lot more.

I would add one speaker to your list: the Revel f328 Be. Stellar performer , one of the best reviewed here. Among top 5 certainly. Good looking too.

In passing...
If by Classical you meant Western Classical, then be aware that it is one genre of music that covers extremes in Frequency Response, and dynamic range. More so than many realize and often more than Pop music.
Example:
Saint Saens "Organ" Symphony #3, Telarc CD-80051 is said to hit lows of 14 Hz.. yes, Fourteen Hertz.
Mercury Living Presence Antal Dorati 1812 : https://a.co/d/52wrIGG
Both can showcase a system or bring it to its knees...

Parting shot:
If you are the not-fussy-type, I would recommend a somewhat controversial system:
Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 for .. everything in front of the speakers :) (Powerful amplification, streamer, superb Room correction, etc)
Revel F328 be or Kef Blade (I would go for the Revel because it seems to be more potent in the bass but ... truly? IDK ;))
Be done.

Read the review from Amir click here. My take on it is that the mostly techie type (me? Us?) would fuss at the technical performances but .. it remains that the pluses outweigh the minuses IMHO. Most of the issues IMHO are not audible ... and you stay under budget too. You be the judge.

Waiting for your answers

Peace.
 
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FeddyLost

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It's room treatments that are the problem. I might eventually be able to get some, but for now, it is a no go, or at best, very minimal
If so, you'd better be ready to have more than one subwoofer.
Regarding room treatment if you rent a house and can't alter existing design, you might find movable diffusion/absorption panels useful. They are more like furniture and can be really nice.
But finally it will depend on your fastidiousness and luck: maybe you'll be satisfied with just big stereo pair.
I am not quite sure what you are asking about concert hall vs simulation? is that what other people refer to as being immersed in the performance vs listening to it through a window? I'm not quite sure what either of those questions means--my sense is that I want the immersive/concert hall experience
I've known fans of calssics that needed to revive an experince of being in some concert hall.
If you are still ok in headphones, this might be not extremely critical for you.
So, don't bother yet.
do you think I might be happier with smaller solutions? I am a bit worried--maybe entirely unfairly--about if smaller solutions will reproduce the sense of immersive bigness I am after
It will depend on your speaker placement and required SPL.
I suppose that you'll need at least midifield monitors even with subwoofer augmentation for decent clean SPL.
Smaller mains with subwoofer can provide immersive bigness, but they might have troubles in midbass (100-350 Hz) if you'll need some realistic fortissimo.
Just to understand possibilities of different speakers, you can check local reviews.
 

MarcT

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MarkS

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IMO, integrating the speakers into the room is far more important to the final sound quality that the specific choice of speaker. So for each speaker under consideration, I would focus on how that will be accomplished, and how much work it will be to get it done.
 
OP
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Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate the recommendations for more speakers to check out, like @Apesbrain's suggestion of the B&W, @MarcT's suggestion to look at Focals, and @FrantzM's suggestion of Lyngdorfs. As @MarcT points out, there are (too) many options.

Thank you, @Keith_W, for the suggestions about how to work with dealers. I have to say I find the whole process somewhat intimidating and mysterious. How does one find out if the dealer's price is a fair one?

@FrantzM, @MarkS , @FeddyLost and others make good points and ask good questions about the room. I am attach a floor plan that shows the 3 potential options for your feedback. (Ceiling height is always 8 feet). They all have advantages. Option C in the bedroom, for instance, is the most isolated--a good reason, probably, to pick it. In all three rooms, I could place the speakers wherever I wanted. I'd appreciate any insights you have about the pros and cons, sonically, of the different rooms.
 

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Doodski

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I have to say I find the whole process somewhat intimidating and mysterious. How does one find out if the dealer's price is a fair one?
By finding out the suggested retail, then compare different dealers prices and then attempt to get about 15% or so off the retail price is usually a fair price the retailers shoot for at a minimum sell price. Sometimes you'll get a smoking deal and get like a 20% discount and that is probably ~25%-30% markup dependent on the deals the vendor got when buying the stuff. Not sooper high for good speakers but ~35% is the usual for a average salesperson to average on speakers. Top salespeople will maintain a average of 35% on all equipment sales at the years end and for speakers alone that will be ~40%'ish markup. Considering operating a audio store costs runs about 22% to 27%+ of that mark-up dependent on overhead the profits are not astronomical. I have ~9 years experience selling home audio and 15 years repairing the stuff for a total of ~24 years so I have some ideas that maybe can help.
 
OP
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By finding out the suggested retail, then compare different dealers prices and then attempt to get about 15% or so off the retail price is usually a fair price the retailers shoot for at a minimum sell price. Sometimes you'll get a smoking deal and get like a 20% discount and that is probably ~25%-30% markup dependent on the deals the vendor got when buying the stuff. Not sooper high for good speakers but ~35% is the usual for a average salesperson to average on speakers. Top salespeople will maintain a average of 35% on all equipment sales at the years end and for speakers alone that will be ~40%'ish markup. Considering operating a audio store costs runs about 22% to 27%+ of that mark-up dependent on overhead the profits are not astronomical. I have ~9 years experience selling home audio and 15 years repairing the stuff for a total of ~24 years so I have some ideas that maybe can help.
Thanks, @Doodski. Just to clarify, you are saying shoot for 15% off of sticker price or 20% if you are really lucky? Does it matter if the seller is a big box store (Best Buy for B&W, say) vs a local hifi store? Do new speakers like Blades tend to go for closer to sticker?

And what do you do if there is only one retailer of the speakers anywhere in the area?
 

Doodski

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Thanks, @Doodski. Just to clarify, you are saying shoot for 15% off of sticker price or 20% if you are really lucky? Does it matter if the seller is a big box store (Best Buy for B&W, say) vs a local hifi store? Do new speakers like Blades tend to go for closer to sticker?

And what do you do if there is only one retailer of the speakers anywhere in the area?
15% to 20% is a reasonable discount for a cash type sale on speakers. (For electronics the profit margins are almost always less than speakers.) If the purchaser really grinds on price and the retailer is game and they dicker pretty seriously they can resent using plastic due to the service charges eating up the profit margin. Boutique HiFi stores are smaller and more flexible for some products. Best Buy is a brick and mortar mass merchandiser and there's no guessing what they will do. Sometimes they do crazy prices just to move it and beat out competitors and other times the price is the price. There is also the store policies. Often Best Buy can offer better terms but not always so check into those terms and weigh them for your needs. I've been reallly ground down by some buyers in the past and it's exciting and also can be very grueling if the grinder is too set on a low price. If you grind them down too much they might want to revoke some terms of sale that you like and the you loose return terms or such. The retailer is trying to pay the overhead, make a margin and satisfy the customer so they are under a fair amount of stress in the deal. I suggest approach the deal with a calm manner, set your terms and goals before you arrive in the store and feel them out. It's going to be a learning experience for sure making such a major purchase of speakers and I wish you the best.
 

Keith_W

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I would choose your smaller room for speakers and set them up like this:

1669533840547.png


The advantage is that the sound bounces off the back wall and into the room beyond where it hopefully won't reflect back. Incidentally, large glass windows are more permeable for low frequency waves meaning it will pass through albeit it might cause the window to rattle. High frequencies are reflected back which you can alleviate by installing acoustic curtains. I forgot to add it in the picture, but I would also install sound absorption at the first reflection point for the left speaker.

For this kind of setup it is important not to choose a rear ported speaker, because it will send bass into the top left corner which will act like a huge horn and amplify your bass quite substantially.
 
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