Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[amper42]

Too many assumptions though...
First, for YOU 2 subs are enough....for others is not. For some one is enough...we are all different.
Selective preamp on the 3800h is already high 90db SINAD so hardly anything between that and the 4700h in full preamp mode BUT , with the 3800, I could use my 7 channel amp and use the AVR for the atmos since I can do selective preamp. With the 4700h if I dont want to go down to 80db SINAD (at 1.6v), I will need an extra expense of a 4 channel amp.
Then there is also the feature of the tactile transducer which again, is a feature that some of us may use and others may not care about.
There is nothing "pipe dream" about DIRAC. It is coming March next year, pretty clear. Audyssey does A job already but is it as good as DIRAC? A lot of people feel otherwise.
It is not about paying more for uneded stuff.... it is about FEATURES that some people may want and others may not. So no, it is not about upselling, is about choices since we all have different needs.

In almost every ASR review category the Denon 3800 measures considerably worse than the Denon 3700/4700. It's a fact. Linearity degraded, Preamp mode distortion sets in early -15dB, Peak performance 0.8V versus 1.4V on 4700, 3800 DAC a full 10dB lower SINAD rating than 3700/4700, 32 tone test is worse. At every turn, the Denon 3800 is a downgrade from 3700/4700 measurements. If you want to trade performance for things most people don't need then you should buy a Denon 3800. Let's be sure it's not an uninformed choice for buyers.

 

[Rockman2]

In almost every ASR review category the Denon 3800 measures considerably worse than the Denon 3700/4700. It's a fact. Linearity degraded, Preamp mode distortion sets in early -15dB, Peak performance 0.8V versus 1.4V on 4700, 3800 DAC a full 10dB lower SINAD rating than 3700/4700, 32 tone test is worse. At every turn, the Denon 3800 is a downgrade from 3700/4700 measurements. If you want to trade performance for things most people don't need then you should buy a Denon 3800. Let's be sure it's not an uninformed choice for buyers.

amper42, Are you comparing the current 3700 and 4700 with the lower quality DAC's or the older units? Thanks

 

[GabrielPhoto]

In almost every ASR review category the Denon 3800 measures considerably worse than the Denon 3700/4700. It's a fact. Linearity degraded, Preamp mode distortion sets in early -15dB, Peak performance 0.8V versus 1.4V on 4700, 3800 DAC a full 10dB lower SINAD rating than 3700/4700, 32 tone test is worse. At every turn, the Denon 3800 is a downgrade from 3700/4700 measurements. If you want to trade performance for things most people don't need then you should buy a Denon 3800. Let's be sure it's not an uninformed choice for buyers.

Lol by the same token if you want to pick numbers at levels where the differences become irrelevant and undetectable in real life to 99% of the population over features you can actually see and use...then be my guest

 

[Trell]

Lol by the same token if you want to pick numbers at levels where the differences become irrelevant and undetectable in real life to 99% of the population over features you can actually see and use...then be my guest

Along with a substantial price increase where the non-limited Dirac Live will cost $349 and the DLBC for Denon is not know it could be another $350. On top of that you’ll need a measurement microphone, another $100, unless you already have it. Getting expensive. Since Dirac Live does not have something like Audyssey DynEQ it’s not something I would extra for, my personal preference.

More than two independent subwoofer preouts is a nice feature to have for a number of people.

 

[dlaloum]

For more than one subwoofer with Dirac Live you need DLBC which is supposed to come in 2024 to the Denon receivers as yet another add-on you have to buy as compared to Audyssey XT32. Unclear what the price will be.

Price has been published by Dirac employee Flax - he pointed everyone to the Arcam AVR5 pricing for the software...

So base price is known.

 

[dlaloum]

In almost every ASR review category the Denon 3800 measures considerably worse than the Denon 3700/4700. It's a fact. Linearity degraded, Preamp mode distortion sets in early -15dB, Peak performance 0.8V versus 1.4V on 4700, 3800 DAC a full 10dB lower SINAD rating than 3700/4700, 32 tone test is worse. At every turn, the Denon 3800 is a downgrade from 3700/4700 measurements. If you want to trade performance for things most people don't need then you should buy a Denon 3800. Let's be sure it's not an uninformed choice for buyers.

Those comparisons are with the 3700 AKM - not with the later 3700 PCM version

I doubt there would be any substantive difference between the 3700 PCM and the also PCM based 3800

Who knows, maybe they even used the same circuit boards!

 

[Trell]

Price has been published by Dirac employee Flax - he pointed everyone to the Arcam AVR5 pricing for the software...

So base price is known.

Thanks for that. For DLBC it cost $349 for a single subwoofer, so more expensive for multiple subwoofers I guess.

 

[rvsixer]

Too many assumptions though...
There is nothing "pipe dream" about DIRAC. It is coming March next year, pretty clear.

Too many assumptions....is right .
Vaporware = future will tell.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Along with a substantial price increase where the non-limited Dirac Live will cost $349 and the DLBC for Denon is not know it could be another $350. On top of that you’ll need a measurement microphone, another $100, unless you already have it. Getting expensive. Since Dirac Live does not have something like Audyssey DynEQ it’s not something I would extra for, my personal preference.

More than two independent subwoofer preouts is a nice feature to have for a number of people.

So? Most of us here already have measurement microphones..in fact, that should be better than just the less "premium" mic included with the AVR. As far as Dirac..well I have been comparing the 3800h to the RZ50 the last week and so far, Dirac is really impressing me. Took a while to figure out but the results..well I am beginning to undertand why so many around here feel is superior to Audyssey. I thought it was a lot of hype only.
But you know once again...OPTIONS....a 3800h owner can choose to pay the $350 for Dirac..or not. A 4700h owner...well no matter how much they are willing to pay they can get no Dirac. And of course, no 4 sub output, no selective preamp. Those are the facts.
Now if you dont need any of those..then there are other AVRs..nobody forces anyone to buy anything, just pick the one that works for you and be happy.
At this moment, I am actually beginning to lean towards the RZ50 but more tests to come.

 

[tsammyc]

I'm in need of a new 9 channel receiver to replace my 20 year old Yamaha 1500, and ordered the 3800. Basically I want to add 4 ceiling Atmos speakers to my fairly state of the art laser projector/MadVR setup. However I do listen to a fair amount of 2 channel music. I may also add some transducers to the couch. I've also been thinking of tinkering with Dirac even though my attic home theater is quite neutral and Audyssey may be sufficient. Although I prefer Dirac included, don't mind upgrading in next year's budget. Currently I use a HDMI switch (Vertex2) to extract audio for my Yamaha receiver and a WIIM mini and Topping AKM DAC (115 SINAD) to play 2 channel music into the Yamaha in Pure Direct through Audirvana (for DSD and other hires support). I do listen to some Multichannel DSD and currently use a Panasonic UB-820's 5.1 analog out (AKM DAC) to the Yamaha multichannel analog input.

Am having some doubts after reading all the negative comments on the DAC of the 3800. However, I don't seem to have much choice:

1. I cannot get an Onkyo RZ50 here or any Pioneers. Seems like they only sell in certain countries
2. The Marantz Cinema 50 is much more expensive and may have the same issue with the TI DACs
3. The Yamaha A6A and especially Anthems are much more expensive.

For 2 channel music, I think I should be ok as I probably will continue to use the WIIM/Topping in Direct mode since no receiver has 115 SINAD and I like the WIIM interface. Amir's measurements of the amplifier section seem to be ok.

So the concern on the internal DAC would be:

1. Multichannel DSD since I don't see a multichannel analog input, and would have to convert to 5.1 PCM (Denons don't accept Multichannel DSD directly) and use the internal TI DAC.
2. Atmos soundtracks being decoded internally and run though the TI DAC. Supposedly explosions and other loud sounds may distort

Would appreciate opinions on my concerns over the internal DAC especially real life experiences of Atmos movie soundtracks being affected by a lower SINAD DAC. Also what alternatives do I have in new AVRs? Am reluctant to buy an older model as I want to future proof with HDMI 2.1 given I don't change receivers often.

 

[tsammyc]

In almost every ASR review category the Denon 3800 measures considerably worse than the Denon 3700/4700. It's a fact. Linearity degraded, Preamp mode distortion sets in early -15dB, Peak performance 0.8V versus 1.4V on 4700, 3800 DAC a full 10dB lower SINAD rating than 3700/4700, 32 tone test is worse. At every turn, the Denon 3800 is a downgrade from 3700/4700 measurements. If you want to trade performance for things most people don't need then you should buy a Denon 3800. Let's be sure it's not an uninformed choice for buyers.

Since external DACs with >110 SINAD are better than most receivers and inexpensive, would your opinion on the 3800 over the 3700 change (price notwithstanding) if one already had a good external 2 channel DAC? How concerned are you about Amir's measurements affecting multichannel Atmos movie soundtracks?

 

[Rockman2]

So? Most of us here already have measurement microphones..in fact, that should be better than just the less "premium" mic included with the AVR. As far as Dirac..well I have been comparing the 3800h to the RZ50 the last week and so far, Dirac is really impressing me. Took a while to figure out but the results..well I am beginning to undertand why so many around here feel is superior to Audyssey. I thought it was a lot of hype only.
But you know once again...OPTIONS....a 3800h owner can choose to pay the $350 for Dirac..or not. A 4700h owner...well no matter how much they are willing to pay they can get no Dirac. And of course, no 4 sub output, no selective preamp. Those are the facts.
Now if you dont need any of those..then there are other AVRs..nobody forces anyone to buy anything, just pick the one that works for you and be happy.
At this moment, I am actually beginning to lean towards the RZ50 but more tests to come.

Please clarify the selective preamp. I have seen posts here that say you can choose LCR and de activat the internal amps for thase channels and have only the preouts running for those channels on a 4700 but others say you can't. They say you can only do this on the 3800 or 4800. I baisicly got the same answer from denon today. But they first said the 3800 would not do it either until I sent them a screen shot I found on this site showin the on screen speaker set up on a 3800. It shows Pre-out Only or Speaker + Pre-out. Denon finally agreed after seeing this but said, this is a different on screen than is available on the 4700 so you can't do this on a 4700.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Too many assumptions....is right .
Vaporware = future will tell.

Whatever makes you happy...

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Please clarify the selective preamp. I have seen posts here that say you can choose LCR and de activat the internal amps for thase channels and have only the preouts running for those channels on a 4700 but others say you can't. They say you can only do this on the 3800 or 4800. I baisicly got the same answer from denon today. But they first said the 3800 would not do it either until I sent them a screen shot I found on this site showin the on screen speaker set up on a 3800. It shows Pre-out Only or Speaker + Pre-out. Denon finally agreed after seeing this but said, this is a different on screen than is available on the 4700 so you can't do this on a 4700.

The 4700 can only do it for the LR or all of them. Cannot select specific channels like the 3800h

 

[dlaloum]

Thanks for that. For DLBC it cost $349 for a single subwoofer, so more expensive for multiple subwoofers I guess.

The full package with DL, and multi-sub DLBC is around US$800

So yes, it takes the AVR up to a completely different pice category!

Given what you gain, and given the D&M AVR's already have Audyssey onboard, I would find this price difficult to justify.

If you are keen on the Dirac based solutions, I would probably wait for a Dirac based AVR with DLBC... it would most probably end up cheaper than optioning up a D&M AVR.... (and you are not expected to be able to option up the D&M AVR's with DLBC until at least 1Q24.... so it will be a while!)

I'm hoping Onkyo will jump into this market segment.

 

[amper42]

Since external DACs with >110 SINAD are better than most receivers and inexpensive, would your opinion on the 3800 over the 3700 change (price notwithstanding) if one already had a good external 2 channel DAC? How concerned are you about Amir's measurements affecting multichannel Atmos movie soundtracks?

I don't use my Denon 4700 for anything but movies. For stereo, I use the RME ADI-2 FS connected to a MBP running Audirvana. MBP (Audirvana) -> ADI-2 FS -> Purifi amp -> Revel F328Be. This combination offers a clarity of sound with music that my 4700 can't match. In answer to your question, I would suggest turning the AVR off for stereo listening.

As far as ATMOS movies I have not had any problems with the Denon 4700 performance. I wouldn't recommend or buy a Denon 3800. It's not the value proposition I look for and adding an external DAC to it doesn't improve the sound as much as simply removing the AVR from the chain.

 

[peng]

Since external DACs with >110 SINAD are better than most receivers and inexpensive, would your opinion on the 3800 over the 3700 change (price notwithstanding) if one already had a good external 2 channel DAC? How concerned are you about Amir's measurements affecting multichannel Atmos movie soundtracks?

Your 110 dB SINAD dac using analog input and direct mode will not change the fact that those D+M avr will still be limited to about 96 to 100 dB SINAD at the preamp output, limited by the vol IC. Still 96 dB SINAD is very good for an avr or integrated amps.

 

[dlaloum]

I don't use my Denon 4700 for anything but movies. For stereo, I use the RME ADI-2 FS connected to a MBP running Audirvana. MBP (Audirvana) -> ADI-2 FS -> Purifi amp -> Revel F328Be. This combination offers a clarity of sound with music that my 4700 can't match. In answer to your question, I would suggest turning the AVR off for stereo listening.

As far as ATMOS movies I have not had any problems with the Denon 4700 performance. I wouldn't recommend or buy a Denon 3800. It's not the value proposition I look for and adding an external DAC to it doesn't improve the sound as much as simply removing the AVR from the chain.

We would all love to see AVR's with 110db SINAD & Dynamic Range - but it just isn't out there.

And as soon as you run your DAC output into the AVR, and ask the AVR to apply RoomEQ and Surround Mixing - the AVR will re-digitise it (run it through its ADC) - and then process and put it out through its DAC's.

Although you might think that the drop from your 110db DAC to the AVR's 80db or thereabouts is dramatic - in the overall scheme of things, your speakers will have a SINAD substantially worse than that - and the benefits gained from RoomEQ, will most likely completely overwhelm any loss of SINAD.

As a perfectionist - I too look a bit askance at some of the SINAD specs of AVR's - but pragmatically, Audyssey &/or Dirac have a far greater impact!

 

[voodooless]

1. Multichannel DSD since I don't see a multichannel analog input, and would have to convert to 5.1 PCM (Denons don't accept Multichannel DSD directly) and use the internal TI DAC.

According to the manual they do:

About HDMI AVC-X3800H

manuals.denon.com

 

[Rockman2]

The 4700 can only do it for the LR or all of them. Cannot select specific channels like the 3800h

So I guess It would be better to wait for the 4800 to be released. I have an ATI 3channel amp to use for the LCR specifically. I believe that will allow better voltage go to the ATI Amp and possibly less distortion?