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Should I upgrade my Dual CS 5000 turntable with a MC cartridge or get a Rega P6 with same cartridge?

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I have a Dual CS 5000 turntable that I have had for over 25 plus years. Its rock solid, no issues, but I have a MM Grado Cartridge on it. I'm thinking about either upgrading it with a MC Ania Pro cartridge or upgrading to the Rega P6 with the same Ania Pro cartridge. I will say the Dual CS 5000 platter has a nice separation from the plinth. In addition, I purchased as Iso Acoustic Zen platform for my turntable to help reduce vibration from the stereo stand when walking in the room. I have a Parasound phono preamp by the way.

If I stay with my Dual my turntable, the Ania Pro cartridge is $1,200 roughly. I would pay the stereo store to install it and make sure the skate and balance is correct. If I go with the P6, the cost is about $2,600.

Which option would you recommend I take and why?

Thanks
 

AaronJ

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What are you using for a phono stage? Making the jump from a Grado MM to a $1200 MC is a significant change, and you’ll need a phono stage that’s up to the task.

If I may offer a third option for your consideration, to get the Rega and fit your Grado on it and see what you think. Kinda difficult to tell if the Rega will be better than your Dual without listening to it with your existing cart. If you like the Rega your option of partnering carts for the P6 should be limitless and then you can add the Aria. If you don’t find any sonic benefit with the Rega then you might be ok to return it and get the Aria for your Dual.
 

Moonhead

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Maybe consider a direct drive like Technics SL1200 or Audio Technica LP140.
 

Cote Dazur

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I have a Dual CS 5000 turntable that I have had for over 25 plus years. Its rock solid, no issues, but I have a MM Grado Cartridge on it. I'm thinking about either upgrading it with a MC Ania Pro cartridge or upgrading to the Rega P6 with the same Ania Pro cartridge
Why do feel the need to change the cartridge? What arm do you have on the Dual? What kind of preamp are you using?
 

DVDdoug

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Back when I used to play records I NEVER heard any difference due to the turntable itself except for a very cheap turntable with a plastic platter that had rumble, or unless the belt or drive wheel was worn-out causing slow speed or wow, or if something else was broken.

A new/different cartridge always seemed to make a difference and I was always upgrading, or wanting to upgrade, my cartridge. The biggest difference between cartridges (assuming I wasn't fooling myself) was frequency response, but in those days the frequency response on the records varied a LOT, and if you think about it rationally it's more practical and economical to fix/adjust frequency response with EQ. I assume newer vinyl is better and more consistent.

I've had a Technics direct drive turntable since the vinyl days that I occasionally use for digitizing records. (A cheaper one, not the SL 1200.) I'm a big fan of direct drive because there are no belts or drive wheels to wear out.
 
OP
Revelation Sound
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I want to capture more detail than my $300 MM cartridge can provide. That is why I want to change it. As I said above, I am using a Parasound phono preamp which has a separate input for MM and MC cartridges. I have the stock arm it came with over 30 years ago. I don't like that the CS 5000 RCA cables is soldered inside the unit and its thin and its starting to show its age.
 

AaronJ

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I think you might find yourself pleasantly surprised at how much better performance you’ll get from a TT upgrade. I can’t comment on the Dual but the P6 is an excellent TT. Most of the sound signature DOES come from the cart. Better tonearm will give better tracking. I’d suggest testing it out on a few tracks you know to be troublesome. The better tonearm will help with IGD, off center pressings, records that aren’t perfectly flat, and the quieter motor will also be a bonus.

The other benefit to doing one upgrade at a time is actually being able to identify where benefits are coming from. You may find that the P6 offers no benefit over your Dual, and if that’s the case then I think you can be confident the Dual can handle just about any cart you put on it.

Sounds like you have your mind made up to get rid of the Dual and I think you’d be quite happy with the P6 if that’s the direction you want to go. Again, just cautioning against doing the TT and cart at the same time. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how good the Grado will sound on the Rega.
 

dlaloum

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The Dual CS5000 arm is a relatively low mass design, made for cartridges with high compliance - ie: tracking forces in the 1.25g to 1.5g range

Putting a cartridge with an optimum VTF of circa 1.9g like the Ania pro - is not going to give you good (well ... optimal) results - it will be a mismatch.

If you want to upgrade the Dual (and it is an excellent TT!) - you need to seek out higher compliance cartridges...

Depending on which Grado cartridge you have on there, there may be substantial upgrades available within the Grado series by the simple expedient of replacing the stylus.... (the core generators across the range are mostly identical, with the key difference being the stylus - TOTL models from the 80's and 90's had the same generator, and the styli are cross compatible.... today those premium styli are reserved for the Grado "woodies" - so there can be substantial scope for upgrades WITHIN the range... if you can find the old TOTL styli)

Your first step in looking for a cartridge should be to make sure it is a good match to the arm mass...

The Rega P6 is better suited to lower compliance cartridges with higher tracking forces (eg: 1.75g to 2g )
The Dual is better suited to higher compliance cartridges with lower tracking forces (1.25 to 1.5g)

Then you can consider extraneous issues (such as getting the right phono stage, and cartridge electrical loading etc...)

In terms of performance - the limits of a cartridge's performance will be driven by the effective mass of the cantilever first and foremost... Hence looking for "exotic" cantilevers... (ruby/sapphire/Boron) - or ultra short cantilevers such as the Dynavector Karat.
Secondly, seek out a line contact needle rather than an eliptical or spherical... it will perform better, and should also last 2 to 3 times longer (!) - not a trivial issue given the $ involved!

In terms of arm to cartridge matching - the TOTAL mass is the key thing (which includes the mass of the cartridge) - this is one of the reasons high compliance designs often had ultra low weight cartridges .... and in some cases with more adjustable cartridge which had exchangeable styli some of which varied in compliance - the cartridge body was provided with a removable weight, so the total mass could be adjusted somewhat to better match with a specific stylus (eg: the Ortofon OM series) - of course lots of people used simpler solutions - such as blu-tack'ing a coin to the headshell to add mass !!

In today's marketplace, most of the arms out there are mid to high mass - and most cartridges low compliance - it is getting harder to get good (high compliance) matches for vintage low mass arms.

One of the advantages of moving to something like the Rega P6 - is that you are moving "with the herd" - the higher mass tonearm is the current vogue/fashion, and therefore it opens up choices from the currently fashionable cartridges.

Personally I prefer to keep an exemplar of the low mass as well as the high mass types in my setup - so I can run a wider variety of cartridges.

But if I was to choose which I think is the superior approach (as opposed to the fashion of the time) - I would argue strongly that high compliance cartridges with low mass arms are the optimal approach.

The other thing I would caution, is that it is very very easy to make a TT sound "different" - and confirmation bias (especially when spending big $ ) will tend to interpret it as "better" - but achieving an objectively better result, is much more difficult.
 

dlaloum

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P.S. - For Grado stylus upgrades seek out the XTZ, TLZ, MCZ and 8MZ.....

eg: https://lptunes.com/collections/grado-needles-stylus?tab=products&sort_by=price&page=1

one more thing - matching a generator with a stylus not originally designed for that body, may require some adjustment of the electrical loading.... - a topic worthy of further research... lots of people have done this, so info will be out there on most specific combinations!

Also for many MM bodies, Jico makes excellent Sapphire/Boron cantilevered replacement styli - the SAS range - which punches substantially above its price bracket.
 
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OP
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The VPI Scout 21 is on sale for $2,500 this month. I was thinking about that turntable as well. But to get a decent cartridge for it will jump the price well over the Rega 6 with Aria Pro which is my budget limit. I do agree the auto lifter on the Dual is nice. I'm disappointed that some higher end turntables don't have this feature. I know the Rega does not have the auto lifter, does the VPI Scout 21 also lack this feature?

I am listening to music right now through my Dual CS 5000 turntable and have to admit, I have no complaints. It really sounds good. There is no weak bass and it provides a pleasant warmer sound to records. This might help in reducing the pops and ticks a record might have. I'm kinda curious how the Rega 6 will sound. Will it truly be better or just different? The Parasound XRM Phono pre provides a bigger full sound vs my NAD 658 preamp. This is the unit I would be using with another turntable. I understand it has different electronics inside for MM and MC. I know I was satisfied with my Adcom 555 amp and really had no complaints. Then when I brought a McIntosh MC152 power amp, there was no comparison, the sound of the music went to another quality level. Not sure if this is the result I will get if I try the R6. In more careful listening, I am thinking the biggest with the R6 will be the top end. More detailed and not as warm. Though this might be a good thing, the pops and ticks will be heard more. I think I will have to pull the trigger as the guess work can only help me to a certain level. I will have to make sure the settings on the back of my phono pre will be set correctly for the Aria Pro. Most audio stores provide a try out period. I am thinking the sound will be in between my Dual and streaming services.
 
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OP
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I think you might find yourself pleasantly surprised at how much better performance you’ll get from a TT upgrade. I can’t comment on the Dual but the P6 is an excellent TT. Most of the sound signature DOES come from the cart. Better tonearm will give better tracking. I’d suggest testing it out on a few tracks you know to be troublesome. The better tonearm will help with IGD, off center pressings, records that aren’t perfectly flat, and the quieter motor will also be a bonus.

The other benefit to doing one upgrade at a time is actually being able to identify where benefits are coming from. You may find that the P6 offers no benefit over your Dual, and if that’s the case then I think you can be confident the Dual can handle just about any cart you put on it.

Sounds like you have your mind made up to get rid of the Dual and I think you’d be quite happy with the P6 if that’s the direction you want to go. Again, just cautioning against doing the TT and cart at the same time. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how good the Grado will sound on the Rega.
I will say this, my Dual has no issues with tracking at all. I do get a hum if the ground wire does not have a good connection to the back of the preamp. One of the wires inside the Dual for the RCA outputs has a bad connection. I never have a problem when playing music, but if I accidentally touch the RCA cable, I can loose a channel. I then have to wiggle the wire to get the sound out of both speakers. The RCA cables though look pretty thin and they are 30 years old. I could upgrade to a MC cartridge and just replace the cables inside. That maybe all I really need to do. Ugh.
 

LTig

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I am listening to music right now through my Dual CS 5000 turntable and have to admit, I have no complaints. It really sounds good. There is no weak bass and it provides a pleasant warmer sound to records. This might help in reducing the pops and ticks a record might have.
No. What really reduces pops and ticks is a line contact stylus. I noticed this when I got a Van den Hul MC One Special.

Hence my advice is to keep the Dual and go for a matching (high compliance, see @dlaloum's great post above) pickup with a line contact stylus. If unsure look for a specified frequency range of up to 45..50 kHz. Then choose a matching phono preamp if you have none. I'm quite sure this will make more of an positive impact than going the other way.

Please let us know what you ended up with.
 

Elkerton

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Your turntable is fine. Replace the cartridge, maybe, with an Ortofon or Audio Technica moving magnetic. While a moving coil may give you more 'detail,' that is largely because of a rising high frequency response typical to it. By all means, replace, or repair, the phono cables.

Wedge whatever your turntable is resting on to the wall behind. That will further minimize footfalls causing the stylus to jump.

If you can, unplug the turntable from the mains and put the stylus down on a stationary record. Turn up the volume really loud. If there is no feedback, play tunes to your heart's content. If not, place the turntable on a board (as pretty as you like) on top of a partially filled 14 or 16" bicycle inner tube. The table will float like a bowl of jelly, unfortunately prone to footfalls, but your tunes will be absolutely clean. You might then mount your table on the wall-- some thoughts you may not fancy.

Happy tunes to you!
 

raindance

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Get an Audio Technica AT540ML cartridge, get it properly setup, and keep the Dual. You'll get more detail for sure and no IGD.
 

dlaloum

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Get an Audio Technica AT540ML cartridge, get it properly setup, and keep the Dual. You'll get more detail for sure and no IGD.
Not ideal - it is a mid compliance cartridge - it's predecessors of 10 years ago AT150, AT440 etc... are much more suitable....

Should aim for a recommended VTF of under 1.5g, 1.25g is good - 1.6g and up is not ideal
 
OP
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The Dual CS5000 arm is a relatively low mass design, made for cartridges with high compliance - ie: tracking forces in the 1.25g to 1.5g range

Putting a cartridge with an optimum VTF of circa 1.9g like the Ania pro - is not going to give you good (well ... optimal) results - it will be a mismatch.

If you want to upgrade the Dual (and it is an excellent TT!) - you need to seek out higher compliance cartridges...

Depending on which Grado cartridge you have on there, there may be substantial upgrades available within the Grado series by the simple expedient of replacing the stylus.... (the core generators across the range are mostly identical, with the key difference being the stylus - TOTL models from the 80's and 90's had the same generator, and the styli are cross compatible.... today those premium styli are reserved for the Grado "woodies" - so there can be substantial scope for upgrades WITHIN the range... if you can find the old TOTL styli)

Your first step in looking for a cartridge should be to make sure it is a good match to the arm mass...

The Rega P6 is better suited to lower compliance cartridges with higher tracking forces (eg: 1.75g to 2g )
The Dual is better suited to higher compliance cartridges with lower tracking forces (1.25 to 1.5g)

Then you can consider extraneous issues (such as getting the right phono stage, and cartridge electrical loading etc...)

In terms of performance - the limits of a cartridge's performance will be driven by the effective mass of the cantilever first and foremost... Hence looking for "exotic" cantilevers... (ruby/sapphire/Boron) - or ultra short cantilevers such as the Dynavector Karat.
Secondly, seek out a line contact needle rather than an eliptical or spherical... it will perform better, and should also last 2 to 3 times longer (!) - not a trivial issue given the $ involved!

In terms of arm to cartridge matching - the TOTAL mass is the key thing (which includes the mass of the cartridge) - this is one of the reasons high compliance designs often had ultra low weight cartridges .... and in some cases with more adjustable cartridge which had exchangeable styli some of which varied in compliance - the cartridge body was provided with a removable weight, so the total mass could be adjusted somewhat to better match with a specific stylus (eg: the Ortofon OM series) - of course lots of people used simpler solutions - such as blu-tack'ing a coin to the headshell to add mass !!

In today's marketplace, most of the arms out there are mid to high mass - and most cartridges low compliance - it is getting harder to get good (high compliance) matches for vintage low mass arms.

One of the advantages of moving to something like the Rega P6 - is that you are moving "with the herd" - the higher mass tonearm is the current vogue/fashion, and therefore it opens up choices from the currently fashionable cartridges.

Personally I prefer to keep an exemplar of the low mass as well as the high mass types in my setup - so I can run a wider variety of cartridges.

But if I was to choose which I think is the superior approach (as opposed to the fashion of the time) - I would argue strongly that high compliance cartridges with low mass arms are the optimal approach.

The other thing I would caution, is that it is very very easy to make a TT sound "different" - and confirmation bias (especially when spending big $ ) will tend to interpret it as "better" - but achieving an objectively better result, is much more difficult.
I called a popular online audio store and asked them about an upgraded cartridge for my TT. They did some searches, but you seem to have more knowledge about the topic than they do. I am now concerned if I go to a brick and motor store or in line, many of these salespeople may not have the knowledge to help choose a correct match with my Dual TT. They just want to get a sale. Several times I got these comments like "Oh your turntable is from the late 80's and early 90's. I don't see much information about its specs and what would be the best setup for it.

I personally don't have a good understanding on high and low compliance cartridges, and almost feel it would be safer to buy a turntable that is current that these younger sales people know more about. New Rega or VPI have cartridges that go well with their equipment or recommended what you can get on their web site.
 

dlaloum

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Yes it can be a challenge - that's why I didn't get into the calculations of effective tonearm mass, compliance resonance etc...

Instead - I used a simply rule of thumb - a low mass arm like this one is typically designed for VTF's of roughly 1.25g (that was the at the time populat spec for the T4P p-mount cartridges... which with an adapter could also be mounted on a standard arm)

There is some scope for variation - so 1.25g to 1.5g is what I would consider the reasonable "OPTIMUM" range for this arm.

Most current arms are heavier - the most "typical" arm for the current generation is the Technics SL1200 arm - ie: the typical S-Arm - these track best at VTF's in the 1.5g to 2.2g

Cartridges that suit this arm very well include:

Various vintage Shures (M97 / V15V and variants of these) - For which aftermarket new styli are available (including the very nice TOTL Jico SAS)
Ortofon OM family OM10/20/30/40 - really good performance kicks of with OM20, OM30 is superb, I have not tried the OM40 (which is quite pricey)
Bodies are identical - only the styli change - beware of the "DJ" versions of the family.... stick with the OM10/OM20/OM30/OM40
Audio Technica AT440MLb (pretty much the same as the AT540ML but with a high compliance stylus for lower mass arms)
Audio Technica AT150MLx (this is the TOTL member of the family... with a high compliance stylus - superb, but not cheap)
Most of the Grado exchangeable stylus cartridges (Black/Red/Silver/Gold) are suitable with VTF around 1.5g for current styli If you can find earlier models, they will run at slightly lighter VTF's
ANY P-Mount cartridge (purchase with an adapter to ease mounting) - they are all designed for 1.25g - and most will work very well with a touch more than 1.25g... 1.4g is often optimal with current styli for these
Stanton / Pickering - golden oldies with the main Hi-Fi targeted cartridges running at VTF's in the 1.2 to 1.5g range
https://www.lpgear.com/product/STANTON681EEEMK3.html
(I still have members of this family in my cartridge library... very nice)

And yes - due to the mainstream market now being VTF's in the 1.8 to 2.5g range - it can be easier, to just go with the flow...

But. There was plenty of research done back in the day, which demonstrated that best performance from vinyl was achieved with low mass arms and high compliance cartridges - resulting also in lower wear to both needle and vinyl (both last longer!)
 
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dlaloum

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P.S. - I focused on MM - but the same thing applies for MC - just check the tracking forces!
 
OP
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I have the Grado gold which I recently purchased. I wished I got something better. Like I said, I am happy with the sound I am currently getting but with a 30 year old turntable is starting to have issues. I think I will order the Rega P6 with Aria Pro. They give 30 day return policy so if it does not offer a decent improvement over what I have, I can just return it.
 
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