Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[voodooless]

Ok and I agree. I believe if two DACs sound slightly different, you can ofcourse measure the differences- but you have to measure the right thing.

What DACs sound provably different, yet we haven’t measured that difference yet?

 

[SIY]

And why do you think people perceive a difference?

He's making it up. Regular pattern for him: wild claims, no evidence, refuses to gather any basic evidence because there isn't any, won't even acknowledge that he doesn't bother with mundane things like, I dunno, basic controls.

One more audio forum cowboy who doesn't trust his ears and needs to peek.

 

[ahofer]

He's making it up.

Surely piling a bunch of wrongly spec'd resistors into a DAC could make it sound different? At some point an ill-matched power supply could also create audible problems. I'm just trying to figure out if there's anything other than "broken" here.

 

[fpitas]

Surely piling a bunch of wrongly spec'd resistors into a DAC could make it sound different? At some point an ill-matched power supply could also create audible problems. I'm just trying to figure out if there's anything other than "broken" here.

Artfully broken?

 

[Tangband]

So how would your resistors/power supply show up in measurements? And why do you think people perceive a difference?

A very unstiff power supply regulation for an OP-amp : slightly higher distortion at full music levels, current clipping in extreme cases, possible lower power voltage driving the OP and for sure some minor compression sound effects . In the original Linn akurate DS the output OP amps lm4562 only have 9 volts because of this - read more here:

Gerts Mod für den Linn Akurate DS (G-ADS) - aktives-hoeren.de

 

[Tangband]

Surely piling a bunch of wrongly spec'd resistors into a DAC could make it sound different? At some point an ill-matched power supply could also create audible problems. I'm just trying to figure out if there's anything other than "broken" here.

Im not defending the purposes of making a dac sound more ”analog” or worse than the input signal, but there is some possibilitys to change the sound with the implimitation of the power supply. And some people like a softer sound, just like some people like open reel taperecorders or vinyl records.

 

[Thomas_A]

Oh yeah, there are myriad reasons why DACs might indeed sound different, but the question is whether anything that measures as well or better than one of the dongles Amir has recommended can be told apart in a blind test. I assume no until given controlled-test evidence otherwise.

And the answer is, no. As mentioned though a DAC that happens to invert polarity may sound different, even if everything else is identical.

 

[voodooless]

A very unstiff power supply regulation for an OP-amp : slightly higher distortion at full music levels, current clipping in extreme cases, possible lower power voltage driving the OP and for sure some minor compression sound effects . In the original Linn akurate DS the output OP amps lm4562 only have 9 volts because of this - read more here:

Gerts Mod für den Linn Akurate DS (G-ADS) - aktives-hoeren.de

What’s the point of this? Bad implementations exist.. nothing new.

 

[Tangband]

And the answer is, no. As mentioned though a DAC that happens to invert polarity may sound different, even if everything else is identical.

The Swedish LTS ( Soundtechnical society ) have tested many DACs , and most of them DID sound slightly different in their extended blind testing, even If the measurements was almost identical.

 

[oleg87]

Artfully broken?

Seems like you could describe much (subjectivist-beloved) audiophile equipment that way.

 

[Tangband]

What’s the point of this? Bad implementations exist.. nothing new.

The point is probably to please audiophiles who likes a slightly softer sound than the master recording.

 

[fpitas]

Seems like you could describe much (subjectivist-beloved) audiophile equipment that way.

That's depressing, yet true.

 

[Julf]

The Swedish LTS ( Soundtechnical society ) have tested many DACs , and most of them DID sound slightly different in their extended blind testing, even If the measurements was almost identical.

Link? Double blind, level-matched ABX or MUSHRA?

 

[voodooless]

The point is probably to please audiophiles who likes a slightly softer sound than the master recording.

I would just invoke Hanlon’s razor:

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity

 

[Thomas_A]

The Swedish LTS ( Soundtechnical society ) have tested many DACs , and most of them DID sound slightly different in their extended blind testing, even If the measurements was almost identical.

One could design a test where you hear noise levels and use DACs having slow filters. What almost identical means is a bit subjective. Some early DACs and CD players could have suboptimal implementation. Modern DACs with normally good implementation, I would say, forget it.

 

[Tangband]

Link? Double blind, level-matched ABX or MUSHRA?

You can buy the papers with the reviews - only a couple of dacs through the years have passed the ” before and after ” listening test.
LTS double blind testing combined with measurements are very advanced, Im sure ThomasA will agree.

 

[voodooless]

You can buy the papers - only a couple of dacs through the years have passed the ” before and after ” listening test.
LTS double blind testing combined with measurements are very advanced, Im sure ThomasA will agree.

We only need one set. So, which ones? What were the measurable differences?

 

[Thomas_A]

You can buy the papers - only a couple of dacs through the years have passed the ” before and after ” listening test.
LTS double blind testing combined with measurements are very advanced, Im sure ThomasA will agree.

Well, the only double blind test I know of where I participated was between two CD players way back. Noise detection around a very high volume rim shot was the revealing sequence. 11/13 score among us. I would probably not hear it at normal listening level.

 

[Tangband]

We only need one set. So, which ones?

Before and after listening :

Sonos : could be detected in the bass area
Oppo sonica : detected , but measured very well
Benchmark DAC2 : could not be detected
Yamaha wxc50 used as dac without preamp : could not be detected.

This is just 4 of many examples of tested dacs that LTS has made.

 

[Thomas_A]

Before and after listening :

Sonos : could be detected in the bass area
Oppo sonica : detected , but measured very well
Benchmark DAC2 : could not be detected
Yamaha wxc50 used as dac without preamp : could not be detected.

This is just 4 of many examples of tested dacs that LTS has made.

What was the bass detection in that case? If a device have too steep HP filtering in the bass, some people can feel difference in the 5-20 Hz range. If the speakers and room is capable reproducing infrasound at high SPL. You can sample a door slam, f goes to DC. You just need a system that can reproduce it.