Dan Clark Expanse Headphone Review

[Hotwetrat]

4 grand for a headphone is laughable regardless of how it measures. there is nothing in materials that justifies this cost!

This

 

[Zenairis]

This

This is not to flame merely stating the facts.

It's not materials. It's paying people who've spent their years lives in and research to develop these kinds of devices. It would not exist without that fact, but my end comment to everyone is until you design and make it yourself you cannot comment on cost. Especially when it out performs some $50,000 headphones. It wasn't designed for every user only specific users who want a specific niche and they have to pay for that niche.

 

[bearcatsandor]

Since when is the cost of a headphone or any product restricted to the materials? (also see this same discussion a few pages back)

edit: cross-posted with @Zenairis. What they said.

 

[oleg87]

Are people still going on about this "cost of materials" nonsense? When has that *ever* been the determinant of price on the high end? If you want commodity headphones that are basically the cost of their parts + some low margin, go to Amazon or AliExpress and knock yourself out.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Hi thanks. Pretty much all of them, but Radiohead’s “Planet Telex” or the Pixies “Planet of Sound” are two. Big Star’s “In the Street” or “September Gurls”. XTC’s “Poor Skelton Steps Out”. Lorde’s first album. On “Royals” the bass drum clipped with the Expanse when I had the volume at 2-3 o’clock and the bass boost on my amp on at 20hz (the third setting, which adds a low shelf sloped to 80 hz). This wasn’t particularly loud—I wouldn’t feel safe going much louder though.

As a comparison, with my HE1000se’s, I drop the amp gain from +18 to +9, have the bass boost on full (the fourth setting, with a shelf sloped from 160hz) and the comfortable volume range is between 10-11 o’clock and 1 o’clock. No pops or clips whatsoever. With the Utopias, amp gain is at zero, bass is on full, same listening ranges.

When I had the Susvaras, it was absurd—amp set on +18 gain, volume started being reasonably enjoyable around 2 o’clock, couldn’t use the bass at all. Hard clipping was noted over 3 o’clock. All of this was in the amp’s solid state mode, not tubes.

I tried all these tracks out with Tidal, and all of them are not particularly quiet - with the Stealth and my ADI 2 DAC, i would typically not listen to these tracks louder than around -30dB. When i reached -20dB, all of these tracks started to sound unpleaseant to me, so i wanted to turn the volume down. I don´t have the Expanse anymore, but from my tests i remember it was not much quieter than the Stealth, maybe 2-3dB. So, if someone asked me, if the ADI 2 DAC´s 1.5 Watt where enough to power Expanse or Stealth for this kind of music/bands, i would say "yes".
I don´t know why it is not working for you and your much more powerful amp, but i wanted to try this for myself and add my subjective perspective.

 

[oscar_dziki]

These things cost $4,000 and I’d wager that I’m maybe one of about four or five at most who actually purchased them on here. I teach medicine and do not need medical advice from this forum either. I’m not listening to them at deafening levels; I’m listening to them at critical levels. And while discussing the math you overlooked that they rest at the furthest reaches of headphones that have been measured here in terms of power demands—which was my position to begin with.

And my response was, that you can drive them easily with 150$ amp, so this shouldn't be a problem for someone who spends $4000 on headphones. If the sound you get from 14 Watt amp is not satisfying for you, then the amplification isn't the problem here if 1 Watt is enough with these headphones, and around 2,5 I have is overkill. BTW I just ran a 40 Hz test on them, and I managed to clip headphones with E30 II. But it was very loud. Clipping started in high gain at 3 o'clock. Not in a region, I would ever listen.

 

[Hotwetrat]

This is not to flame merely stating the facts.

It's not materials. It's paying people who've spent their years lives in and research to develop these kinds of devices. It would not exist without that fact, but my end comment to everyone is until you design and make it yourself you cannot comment on cost. Especially when it out performs some $50,000 headphones. It wasn't designed for every user only specific users who want a specific niche and they have to pay for that niche.

Just wondering if this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Topping-ES9038Q2M-768kHz-Bluetooth-Decoder-Black/dp/B07VJN11TQ/ref=sr_1_9?crid=14AQ1U7DSE3Z6&keywords=topping+dac&qid=1667231587&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI1Ljc3IiwicXNhIjoiNC44MSIsInFzcCI6IjMuNTIifQ==&sprefix=topping+dac,aps,101&sr=8-9 was priced at £1,999, would near enough the exact same argument apply.

Not the finest example but somebody might see my point.

A huge point of this forum is preaching that now, in 2022, engineering has come so far, it simply DOES NOT COST the 'earth' to reproduce audio with excellent fidelity.

I am not a scientist nor headphone designer but I am going to be interested what THIS level of headphone performance costs in 2032.

No disrespect to Mr Dan Clark, dude is clearly a master - but I am a long way from convinced 4K is not comedy ..... I'll go grab my audio quest cable to match.

Mr Yang - looks like there is a massive niche in high performance headphones at Topping prices, rally up a team, revserse engineer (common sense?) sell for £599-699 and you'll dominate the headphone market and sell an absurd amount of units!!! (rather than 3..... Because they cost 4K and 98% of heaphone enthusiasts will not touch them for one reason or another, that's a LOT of lost sales!!!!)

I'm probably too thick to even participate in this conversation.

 

[Jimbob54]

it simply DOES NOT COST the 'earth' to reproduce audio with excellent fidelity

It indeed does not. And you can get very good results for £00s. But isnt the point that if you do want to spend £000, follow the science and get these rather than, say, some Abyss?

I dont think anyone is saying you SHOULD spend £4000 to get excellence. But that if you want to spend £4000 you SHOULD get excellence.

 

[majingotan]

Prove that please and I’ll consider it. These headphones are not designed for a dongle and I find what you’re alleging very hard to believe. I’m just in the midst of a pile on here, which is one of the very reasons this site drives off participants and gets whatever negative rap it has. If the goal is to send me packing then just say so, and quit pretending that this place is about a respectful exchange of ideas.

Just laying out my anecdotal findings. Then again, iFi has been exposed with their Diablo not providing enough current on certain headphone loads from another forum as shown by @WolfX-700 measurements

Diablo starts clipping somewhere in the 600mw range at low impedance loads like the Expanse. It could be that your iFi Pro amp suffers the same issue hence you hear clipping already while my Apple Dongle and my SET amp has ZERO issues whatsoever with Expanse

 

[solderdude]

The ifi pro ican can deliver 14W into 16ohm = 15V (balanced acc. to the specsheet).
It will have no issues reaching in 23ohm = at least 10W so there is no shortage of power here.

 

[Phoney]

The ifi pro ican can deliver 14W into 16ohm = 15V (balanced acc. to the specsheet).
It will have no issues reaching in 23ohm = at least 10W so there is no shortage of power here.

The iFi Pro iCAN has an output impedance of 3.2 Ohm. Amir measured it and said be careful with <32 ohm headphones. While I know that planars don't usually suffer from this due to a flat impedance curve (?), but this one doesn't have a flat impedance curve. Could that possibly be a factor here?

 

[Garrincha]

I have an iFi Pro iCAN Signature amp, that outputs 14 watts of balanced power at 16 ohms. It also has three gain stage settings at 0, +9 and +18db, depending on the power demands of any particular headphone, along with four ASP bass enhancement settings that range from a sub bass boost of 6db to a broader emphasis from 20-160hz depending on where your headphone rolls off.

Amir previously reviewed its predecessor, the Pro iCAN, and although his assessment was not glowing, he did clearly state that it had an immense surfeit of power for any application.

I own a set of Utopias, a HifiMan Edition XS and an HE1000se that all pair beautifully with it—for the sensitive Utopias I set the gain at the lowest stage and engage the bass boost on full range. For the planar HifiMans I set the gain at +18 and the bass boost at the lowest setting (sub bass only) and have plenty of headroom.

For the Expanse, as well as a set of Susvaras I tried, I’d have the gain set at +18 and the cans plugged into the balanced 4 pin XLR jack, and the modest listening range started around 2 o’clock—which is an insane amount of power. Even with the bass boost at the lowest setting or off altogether, I had a couple of kick drums clip when I got up to 4 o’clock or so, and although this was fairly loud it wasn’t alarmingly loud by any means.

I don’t like driving my amp at these ranges without any meaningful headroom available. I should be able to have an enjoyable listening volume at 12 o’clock without any distortion or risk of clipping. Solderdude brought up this limitation of the Expanse early on in this thread to little fanfare, and in my personal experience his criticisms were evident in my real world experience.

I personally think non-electrostatic cans should be dinged in a review for being this insensitive, as it limits the range of applications where they can be used. To enjoy these headphones in any setting other than a formidable desktop amp and a balanced connection would be a seriously limiting experience, and I think prospective buyers should be aware.

I welcome anyone on here who has actually tried the Expanse to offer their feedback and tips for how I might be able to mitigate these limitations. For those who haven’t tried them, please do so before criticizing my assessments—I have no insincere motivations informing my feedback here. Thank you!

I don't really get it, if other owners believably confirm that the $150 Topping L30II drives them with ease, is it asked for too much to make that investment for a $4000 headphone? Since it is an open back, it is anyway not made for taking on the streets.

 

[solderdude]

The iFi Pro iCAN has an output impedance of 3.2 Ohm. Amir measured it and said be careful with <32 ohm headphones. While I know that planars don't usually suffer from this due to a flat impedance curve (?), but this one doesn't have a flat impedance curve. Could that possibly be a factor here?

Amirs output R measurements were incorrect in those days. Output R is probably closer to 1ohm.
It would have resulted in a 0.14dB extra bass boost around 100Hz and considering the bass boost function was also used there would have been an 8dB bass boost anyway.
srkbear must either have had a poor seal or is a notorious bass-head.

Do note how distortion rises at 114dB SPL and considering the basshead character and the usage of the ifi bass boost and the power unleashed on the driver it makes sense that the SPL at the lowest frequencies might have been 10dB above that resulting in increased distortion and maybe even IM products messing up the sound at lower SPL in the rest of the spectrum. The rise in distortion matches that of the impedance rise and assuming that the rise is caused by acoustic effects (and not filtering of sorts) that could point to something going on at high SPL and low frequencies.

 

[oscar_dziki]

Do note how distortion rises at 114dB SPL and considering the basshead character and the usage of the ifi bass boost and the power unleashed on the driver it makes sense that the SPL at the lowest frequencies might have been 10dB above that resulting in increased distortion and maybe even IM products messing up the sound at lower SPL in the rest of the spectrum. The rise in distortion matches that of the impedance rise and assuming that the rise is caused by acoustic effects (and not filtering of sorts) that could point to something going on at high SPL and low frequencies.

As I said I managed to clip Expanses on L30 II with a 40 Hz test signal at a 3 o'clock high gain. If he is a total bass head, he might have clipped it as well. Let me add - SPL was hard to withstand.

 

[solderdude]

Most likely you managed to clip the L30-II, the ifi still has quite a few dB headroom (in balanced operation) left compared to the L30-II.
I have a sneaky suspicion the Expanse does not like SPL above 120dB in the bass region.

 

[Robbo99999]

Most likely you managed to clip the L30-II, the ifi still has quite a few dB headroom (in balanced operation) left compared to the L30-II.
I have a sneaky suspicion the Expanse does not like SPL above 120dB in the bass region.

Ha, if that's the case, I don't think that's the end of the world at all!

 

[oscar_dziki]

I don’t think it’s a problem either, but good to know that I don’t seem to have received an outlier. Thanks for checking!

The sound that is much more interesting to me is the one that you hear bringing those two rods together and releasing them. As if my head was inside a double bass box.

 

[juliangst]

I see many reviewers complaining about the lack of dynamics. Do they really lack punch and dynamics or do people just underestimate the power requirements for these? I would only use low impedance headphones like those with a speaker amp to make sure they get enough current for their maximum potential

 

[solderdude]

A lot of the subjective reviews are just based on ... well... opinions.
Part of that may be about their definition of the word 'dynamics/punch'.
Part of that may be due to people clipping their amps at louder levels.
Those complaints are mostly made about all DCA/mr. Speakers models.
Could be the '1-4kHz dip' some models have may have created this 'myth' and apply it to all DCA models by default.

For 'normal' listening levels (75dB average) 1V (= 50mW in 20ohm) is already enough.
For impressively loud levels you need quite a bit more.

 

[Hotwetrat]

I see many reviewers complaining about the lack of dynamics. Do they really lack punch and dynamics or do people just underestimate the power requirements for these? I would only use low impedance headphones like those with a speaker amp to make sure they get enough current for their maximum potential

As an idiot I am gonna make a guess for fun. I would imagine a lot of the SUBJECTIVE 'dynamics' and 'punch' is due to the recording itself and as these are accurate headphones I assume? Then there is no artificially inflated much of anything and as such the tricks/tweaks many headphone/speaker manufacturers make which stray from accuracy in favour of making somebodies ear perk up are simply not there - because it's not there in the recording.

I still stand 100% by my first (edit - second) post mind.