Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[dlaloum]

The real danger is that this product does well, and it convinces the new management to lower their benchmark going forward.

It competes with Onkyo and Yamaha.... their performance was lower than the early X3700's...

They have lowered their standards to match the competition.

If the other competitors release AVR's with substantially higher performance - D&M will have to raise their game

Once AKM chips are back in the market (next year) - they will be able to prepare the next generation (X3900 ?) and performance should rise again.

 

[hmt]

That does not become more true the more often you claim it. 87 db down for distortion means at 105 db fundamental you have 18 db distortion. There is no way you can hear that. You dont need a study for it.

 

[amirm]

Let's look at how much I have curved tests like this:

If a $100 DAC produced this kind of performance we would all go crazy! Yet, I allow such high level of noise in AV products. Go ahead and explain who noise is inaudible in a form like this.

Or this jitter:

Or loss of linearity due to noise:

In the past, I turned a blind eye here because SINAD as delivered by Denon was class leading. Take that down huge number of steps and that shield is gone. Now we have measurement after measurement that leaves us wanting. This is simply not a precision piece of audio equipment even by AV standards. Pay $500 for it and we will be good. But not $1699.

 

[amirm]

Once AKM chips are back in the market (next year) - they will be able to prepare the next generation (X3900 ?) and performance should rise again.

That would require another redesign. Give them a free pass and they won't go there. Why should they?

 

[lamda18]

I wonder. Why don't they manufacture exclusively digital pre-pros, so that the consumer can use the dac of his choice?

 

[hmt]

If a $ 100 DAC would perform like this but actually bring more to the table than just being a DAC - I would not care a bit. But I am no SINAD zealot.

 

[dlaloum]

They have good reasons. The older DACS were not readily available in the supply chain. Yes, you could stamp with your feet and complain about some measurement with little relevance.

There were higher performance DAC's available from other manufacturers... or they could have done a better job in design with a chipset that claims 112db S/N...

 

[hmt]

I wonder. Why don't they manufacture exclusively digital pre-pros, so that the consumer can use the dac of his choice?

Because appart of this bubble no one cares. People buying AVRs either dont go to forums llike ASR and if they are enthusiasts they care more about Room Correction.

I think part of the reasoning is that they already used the PCM DACS - for Zone 2/3 out.

 

[dlaloum]

What does it do so well and by what standard? Just the wet thumb in the air that its objective performance is good enough? Everything that it did just as well as the 3700 that was so highly praised, plus four independent subwoofer outs AND you can even use the #4 sub out as a dedicated transducer preout

Should I stop testing them then and you all just tally the feature list and number of logos on the front as measure of how good it is? No. No one is saying that. I am extremely thankful for the work you do. What we are saying is that if we are going to gig disregard a audio product for measuring badly in a area, it should at least be audible.

Hmmm.... the absolute Data is provided...

What you are beefing about, is the subjective opinion, based on a value judgement that is appended on the end.

@amirm values the SINAD more highly than you do... but he is fairly clear about it.

It is incumbent on YOU to make your own subjective opinion, based on your own value judgements, and evaluations of what aspects are most important to you!

 

[dlaloum]

What is the go to "all arounder" receiver that ASR recommends that is new in 2022?

What makes you think that "ASR" recommends anything?
Amirm has his subjective opinion... other contributors on ASR have theirs.... there may be a concensus that develops... but I'm not seeing it.

 

[Brian6751]

Hmmm.... the absolute Data is provided...

What you are beefing about, is the subjective opinion, based on a value judgement that is appended on the end.

@amirm values the SINAD more highly than you do... but he is fairly clear about it.

It is incumbent on YOU to make your own subjective opinion, based on your own value judgements, and evaluations of what aspects are most important to you!

Just so I understand;

On a site called audio SCIENCE review, in a review article written by the owner of said site that is literally all measurements with sub text explaining the measurements, with ranking charts based on the measurements... its incumbent on the reader to know that the authors final conclusion is based on his subjective opinion? LOL

 

[amper42]

What does it do so well and by what standard? Just the wet thumb in the air that its objective performance is good enough? Everything that it did just as well as the 3700 that was so highly praised, plus four independent subwoofer outs AND you can even use the #4 sub out as a dedicated transducer preout

Should I stop testing them then and you all just tally the feature list and number of logos on the front as measure of how good it is? No. No one is saying that. I am extremely thankful for the work you do. What we are saying is that if we are going to gig disregard a audio product for measuring badly in a area, it should at least be audible.

It was audible when the 3700 did not sound as good as my RME ADI-2. Now with the 3800 dropping 10db to 87 SINAD that will show up in sound quality. If you don't care, or have already lost half your hearing that's an entirely different discussion.

 

[Battlebeast]

Can anyone actually hear any of these "issues? Would be interesting for some double blind testing. Personally I can't fathom being able to hear such seemingly subtle differences in measurements.

 

[PeteL]

It was audible when the 3700 did not sound as good as my RME ADI-2. Now with the 3800 dropping 10db to 87 SINAD that will show up in sound quality. If you don't care, or have already lost half your hearing that's an entirely different discussion.

May I ask how you came to this conclusion?

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Just so I understand;

On a site called audio SCIENCE review, in a review article written by the owner of said site that is literally all measurements with sub text explaining the measurements, with ranking charts based on the measurements... its incumbent on the reader to know that the authors final conclusion is based on his subjective opinion? LOL

This is a mess created by Denon. I don’t understand why you guys are trying to clean it up for them?

As @amirm mentioned numerous times, “inaudibility” that you’re referring to has not been studied by any reputable measures. Sending people to a website to test their ears doesn’t make any sense since none of the equipments in that test are standardized. One can go there by their phone and listen with a crappy headphone. 96db CD SINAD was audible by many people that SACD came out. Don’t just throw out words like “inaudible” in the air. Inaudible to whom?

 

[Beershaun]

That is not proving one could distinguish a 87 db SINAD am from one with 97 db.

But why apologize for companies that regress their performance by -10db from the previous generation? From here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

The most lenient threshold of audibility for SINAD is -85db and the provable audibility limit is 120db SINAD. So, what...should we just all be happy with giving the engineers a 35db range to work within? And what about the intermodulation distortion? That is much more audible and directly connected to the regressions both on the upper and lower ranges of the spectrum. And we get to pay more for it? No thanks. Do not pass go and do not get to collect my $1600. The used market for 3700s just went through the roof I think.

 

[Hirez24]

So I started visiting this site after my system was already in place, I have a fairly nice theatre set up with an av8802a and an oppo 205 as the main pieces.
After I set all of this up I noticed that the av8802a sounded like crap compared to my oppo205, I also listen to a lot of ripped dvd-a /sacd surround sound discs
which didn't sound good to me on the av8802a, it got so bad that I found a parasound P7 (7.1 preamplifier with multiple 7.1 channel inputs)so that I could utilize my oppo to listen to stereo and multi channel music without the Marantz in the loop and not have to have two separate systems. For movie purposes my av8802a is just fine but for music I will only use the oppo 205.

My point is that even before seeing the SINAD scores for the oppo and the Marantz successor 8805 (which presumably should be better) I could definitely hear a difference in the audio. The test scores only proved what I heard.

I had high hopes for this years Denon offerings with the DIRAC and all, figuring I might be able to simplify my system using one of the denon avrs in pre mode.

Guess I will wait for the next AVR that measures well and has the features I want. Not sure if can swing the AVH1 or the marantz equivalent even if they do test well.

Thanks for this awesome site!

 

[amper42]

May I ask how you came to this conclusion?

Simple AB tests with Denon 4700 pre-amp mode vs RME ADI-2 with same Purifi amp in stereo and Revel F328Be. The RME ADI-2 easily sounds better to my ear. I was unable to get the Denon AVR with or without Audyssey to sound as good as simply using the ADI-2 with a stereo configuration. That's why I now leave the Denon AVR off for stereo music playback.

 

[Brian6751]

This is a mess created by Denon. I don’t understand why you guys are trying to clean it up for them?

As @amirm mentioned numerous times, “inaudibility” that you’re referring to has not been studied by any reputable measures. Sending people to a website to test their ears doesn’t make any sense since none of the equipments in that test are standardized. One can go there by their phone and listen with a crappy headphone. 96db CD SINAD was audible by many people that SACD came out. Don’t just throw out words like “inaudible” in the air. Inaudible to whom?

I dont understand why you guys have an issue with questions being asked on a Science forum.

Its a noble cause, its just some things dont make sense to some of us. Do the ends justify the means? Is that what this is about?

 

[diddley]

Thanks Amir for a splendid review, sad that the company left so much on the table.
Thanks also to the one out there for sending him in.
This was a review that was highly expected for. at least by me.
well now we knoe that the 3900H wont be nothing special if the company chooses this route.