• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Denon AVR-X3800H Review

Rate this AVR

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 83 18.9%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 206 47.0%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 118 26.9%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 31 7.1%

  • Total voters
    438

_thelaughingman

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Messages
1,324
Likes
1,943
Hi

The usual suspects got stale, fat and/or complacent. Market opportunities? Waiting for the people at Topping , SMSL , et al to upend this market segment.

Peace.
This has been echoed by so many on ASR.
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,092
Likes
2,353
Well I'm pretty sure they dont test to this level. They do audio test in the real world and I'd bet no one on this board can hear the difference. Not to knock on the science aspect of it but if the difference is inaudible who really cares?
Yep - once you are past the threshold of audibility, does it matter?

To some degree, yes it does... it provides an indication of the level of engineering care, design hygiene, that has been applied.

Ultimately it may provide an indicator to long term reliability for this very reason.

But in a day and age when top performing chips are so cheap, it is sad to see that AVR's keep falling far from stat of the art performance.

In the 70's there were true state of the art receivers, and competition was fierce in that segment.

Today the receivers are focused on movies and effects, techno-wizardry, where often the whizz-Bangs are more important than delicate detail in a soft piece of music.

I truly believe that a great Music oriented receiver will do a better job with movies, than one that is purely movie oriented - music is a far harder taskmaster.

And perhaps THIS is the key to where AVR performance is at.

On the other hand - a device with 7 to 9 channels of amplification, 11+ channels of DAC, 7 channels of ADC's, sophisticated audio decoding and processing, and all of that for under $2000.... it truly is a spectacular deal all things considered! Still - they raised the price, while reducing the valye - that is sad.
 

Fidji

Active Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
259
Likes
545
Do we say that Denon is worse than much maligned Trinnov? LOL.

I think we can expect also higher models to measure similarly.
 

Brian6751

Active Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2019
Messages
155
Likes
161
Definitely disappointed in the measurements. Like Amir, I would have thought Denon would want to leverage the great measurements the last gen had going forward.

But, I can not tell the difference between the 3800 and my old 6700. I used to think my threshold was SINAD in the 90's, now I can see its actually the mid to high 80's.

Again, a bit disappointed but, my opinion hasn't changed. I think the 3800 sounds great and I'm not sorry for switching at all. I wanted to keep the sound I liked and gain more sub outputs and that's still what I got.
 

coptician

Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2021
Messages
29
Likes
44
It's a shame to see a regression here, especially at a much-increased pricepoint.

I did have plans to replace my Marantz SR7010, mostly for compatibility reasons with new HDMI features. But if it's not even going to have better performance, it feels pretty bad to spend more than what I spent on the SR7010 (I got it second-hand).

I would also love to see one of the respected DAC/headphone amp manufacturers come into this space. It would be hard to do for them, but I think a lot of people would pay a fair amount for something that is truly objectively outstanding, me included. And once they are in that space, they can start iterating products just like they do in their current spaces for a relatively low investment. Versions that are only processors, separate multi-channel amps, etc.
 

Ajax

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
248
Likes
802
Location
Byron Bay, Australia
Great review! Thank you Amir.

AVRs are in need of extensive redesign of pre- and amplifier sections. Their performance it is still 1980’s consumer’s electronics (and their looks too). It is also truly indicative of poor product design to market a new AVR with worse performance than the one before.

$ 1,700 is a decent chunk of money to be careless about: it buys you a SOTA amp and DAC/Preamp with some cash left, albeit not a multichannel one. I soldier by with my 2.1 modest AV system as I rather wait for improved specs, review, aesthetic and price.
HI Andrea,

FYI - 8 channel SOTA performance is available by combining a Topping D70 DAC with a Buckeye 8 x Hypex NC252MP, all for US$2,350 total.


 

DerRoland

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2020
Messages
71
Likes
100
Location
Germany
3700vs3800 Distortion.jpg

I have merged a comparison of the old review chart of the 3700 (green lines) and the new 3800 (red/pink line).

It seems the distortion increases only at the higher levels. Can this truly an exchanged DAC cause?
 

hansik

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
77
Likes
102
Extremely disappointed. This was THE receiver I was gonna buy to have Dirac on a capable AVR. :(
 

Dj7675

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2019
Messages
2,116
Likes
2,782
This is what I expected with the downgraded DAC. This is also why I had hoped we could see a bench test of the 3700 after the DAC change. People buying the 3700 based on the great results of the 3700 results but the one they were purchasing was much more likely to be results like this. There is still a lot going for the 3800 with 4 independent sub outs, and upcoming Dirac. If it gets DLBC and is solid/bug free it could still be a solid choice, but sad to see such a step backwards by Denon. Looking forward tot he Marantz models to be reviewed as well as the flagship Denon receiver.
 

mctron

Active Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
100
Likes
175
HI Andrea,

FYI - 8 channel SOTA performance is available by combining a Topping D70 DAC with a Buckeye 8 x Hypex NC252MP, all for US$2,350 total.


Plus the computer
 

Dj7675

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2019
Messages
2,116
Likes
2,782
HI Andrea,

FYI - 8 channel SOTA performance is available by combining a Topping D70 DAC with a Buckeye 8 x Hypex NC252MP, all for US$2,350 total.


And what are you going to do about HDMI? Atmos? DTS:X? Auro 3D? Would it be user friendly with a remote? Zones? Built in streaming? The modern receiver sometimes get blasted, but on the other hand, if you look at what it can actually do, it is quite amazing in many regards…
 

Gorgonzola

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2021
Messages
1,017
Likes
1,398
Location
Southern Ontario
Why do AVR makers treat customers like suckers? One thing at least is that they don't expect their products to be subject to the objective scrutiny they get here at ASR. Is there any reason for foisting poorly preforming DACs, etc., on the public?

I wonder if the problem has anything to do with the challenges of designing one-box products?
 

beaRA

Active Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2021
Messages
223
Likes
315
Thanks for the review @amirm ! Any chance you could test the bass management crossover slopes? This one would be great to revisit when the Dirac upgrade is available for direct comparisons to Audyssey MultEQ XT32.
 

Ajax

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
248
Likes
802
Location
Byron Bay, Australia
Plus the computer
Sure, a second hand computer (say) with HDMI out and the appropriate software loaded would also be required. Maybe another $1k-$1.5k, but still insane value with massive functionality and performance when compared to some of the HiFi jewellery being espoused by so called "up market" manufacturers.

Depends on what you value, bells and whistles or good technology producing good sound. Both have their place. My preference would be the latter.
 
Last edited:

peng

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
5,615
Likes
5,168
I don't know why so many seem surprised by the test results. I have actually predicted in one of my posts that the degradation could be in the high 80's. That was solely based on the PCM5102A DAC IC's lower SINAD than the AK4458. Logic and math don't lie!

The difference is a whopping 14 to 15 dB difference as shown by the datasheets. The measured 10 dB difference is actually good news relatively speaking and should be expected as well because the prior models were limited by the volume control IC and could not take full advantage of the 107 dB SINAD that the AK4458 offers anyway.

I am more disappointed with the higher IMD, but overall if we compare the two in a tightly controlled DBT, I would bet 10:1 less than 10% of the audience would be able to tell a difference. 0.05% THD+N, 20-20 kHz is still excellent for most people included those with trained ears and has minimal hearing loss lol.. I thought @Brian6751 would agree might agree with me.:)

For use as an AVR, this is the graph that really counts, and if you compare it with the X3700H's you can see why I do not believe one can tell a difference between it and the X3800H, regardless of the DAC chip difference.

index.php
 

Dj7675

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2019
Messages
2,116
Likes
2,782
Can the x3800h disconnect selected channels like the 8500 can? Or can is it all or nothing using the preamp mode to disconnect all channels?
 

peng

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
5,615
Likes
5,168
Can the x3800h disconnect selected channels like the 8500 can? Or can is it all or nothing using the preamp mode to disconnect all channels?

If I remember right, one user confirmed that it could be done on individual channel pair (even the center, presumably) basis. The manual isn't clear on this but that's just my opinion.
 
D

Deleted member 19122

Guest
It's a shame to see a regression here, especially at a much-increased pricepoint.

I did have plans to replace my Marantz SR7010, mostly for compatibility reasons with new HDMI features. But if it's not even going to have better performance, it feels pretty bad to spend more than what I spent on the SR7010 (I got it second-hand).

I would also love to see one of the respected DAC/headphone amp manufacturers come into this space. It would be hard to do for them, but I think a lot of people would pay a fair amount for something that is truly objectively outstanding, me included. And once they are in that space, they can start iterating products just like they do in their current spaces for a relatively low investment. Versions that are only processors, separate multi-channel amps, etc.
Why on earth would they? It's far more profitable for the Toppings of the world to keep you guys on the Sinad upgraditis path than to make something as cost intensive and service/warranty oriented as an avr.DAC's are cheap/simple to make compared to an avr,where you have to issue new firmware etc.Truth is avrs are just fine for those who don't worry about inaudible sinad differences.Pick your channel amount, preferred room eq and enough power for your listening habits/room size and be done with it!
 

Dj7675

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2019
Messages
2,116
Likes
2,782
If I remember right, one user confirmed that it could be done on individual channel pair (even the center, presumably) basis. The manual isn't clear on this but that's just my opinion.
Thanks. Sometimes things get lost. And that is a feature many wanted to trickle down, and if it has that is a good thing. If @amirm had the time or inclination, it would be great to confirm it worked. For example, turning preamp mode off and testing the center channel using the amp assign to disconnect center channel.
 

mdsimon2

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2020
Messages
2,478
Likes
3,316
Location
Detroit, MI
View attachment 239739
I have merged a comparison of the old review chart of the 3700 (green lines) and the new 3800 (red/pink line).

It seems the distortion increases only at the higher levels. Can this truly an exchanged DAC cause?

Yes, this makes sense as the dynamic range measurement (noise) was the same and at lower levels it is noise that dominates.

Michael
 
Top Bottom