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Advice sought - Small room, loving JBL LSR305 - What's the next step up?

rongon

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Hi there,

I figure this might be a good place to ask for shopping advice, since it's difficult to personally audition all the speakers there are out there in the world.

A few years ago, Amir's review of the LSR305 sealed the deal for me, and I sprang for a pair of the first gen ones, as an experiment. I truly believed I'd hate them, but I wanted to hear what all the fuss was about. Long story short, they're still in my living room. I enjoy them pretty much every day.

I have a small listening room, in an apartment with downstairs neighbors who I actually like, so Klipsch or home theater style SPLs are completely out of the question. I think this is one situation where a pair of very accurate near-field monitors can be a good choice. I listen rather close to the speakers, about 4 to 6 feet away, depending on whether I've moved up close for some 'serious' listening.

I don't need more bass response than what the LSR305s deliver. They make enough bass, for sure, but it's not the tightest, fastest sounding bass I've heard. My room has a bit too much bass reinforcement as it is, and I'm not a 'bass head'. But I don't like a mid-prominent, shrieky sound (Klipsch bookshelf speakers, Lowther).

So, the question: If I want to spend about $1500 for a pair of top flight active near-field monitors that are a noticeable improvement on the LSR305s, what do you think I should listen to? I'm thinking Genelec 8030C would fit the bill. Or is Genelec 8330C better? What about Neumann KH-120? Any others that are highly recommended for home listening?

Or should I save up another $600 or so and get a pair of JBL 705p? JBL 4305P?

Or for home listening would it be better to go the traditional passive speaker route with something like a pair of Revel M16 and $500 for a good amplifier? (Is there a really good stereo amplifier for $500?)

I'm looking for small speakers with accurate frequency response, low distortion, nicely controlled horizontal dispersion, and ASR-approved :). I don't need loud, I don't need super-low bass. My room actually sounds OK if I sit close to the speakers, and 'not bad' if I move away from the listening window. But I'm definitely staying near-field for any serious listening.

What's the verdict? Is there a verdict?

Thanks for your opinions, experiences, etc.
--
 

Peluvius

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I would go actives and if you can listen to the Genelec/Neumann/JBL options. I think the models you have referenced will all sound great and then it will come down to your personal preference for appearance and sound. I can't audition all of them and went for the Genelecs. I would select the 8330A over the 8030c as you can then use GLM to calibrate the room which is a massive plus.
 
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rongon

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I'm reading up on the GLM option and it does sound attractive. I'm one of those silly people who still listens to LPs ('vinyl') since I have a couple thousand records I collected over the course of my life, and I like spinning them. That means I can't run all my sources through a computer without the additional expense of a good 'sound card' with good line level ADCs as well as DACs. Having the digital room correction in the speakers themselves could be a major asset for me -- and it's not that much more money...
 

alex-z

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If you have $1500 to spend, I would not spend it all on the speakers. Some basic acoustic treatment could do a lot for the quality of your sound, particularly in the low frequencies.

Genelec 8030C would offer slightly less bass extension than the JBL LSR305, so I think that would be a poor choice for anyone lacking a subwoofer.

Given your low SPL requirement, I would consider a pair of KEF Q350, with a miniDSP Flex, and Aiyma A07 amp. You can put together that setup for $1100. Or $1200 if you want to be particularly ambitious, and convert the speakers to active crossover with a second amp.

And yes, an $80 amp sounds a bit mad. But you are listening at 6ft distance with 85dB sensitivity speakers, that little amp can deliver you 98dB with less than .01% distortion. Dropping $500-600 on an amplifier isn't going to improve the listening experience.
 
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rongon

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My listening room is a bit of a challenge. One of the reasons I prefer near-field listening is that I don't have to go to extremes with room treatment that way. I have applied some basic absorption and diffusion, using black foam block constructions in strategic locations (corners, behind the speakers, behind the listening position. The room sounds pretty good. It has a flutter echo which is impossible to get rid of completely, as the listening room is open to another room on one side and a hallway to the door on the other, with a large glass sliding door on one side (for which I have vertical blinds and a curtain to dampen the reflection). There's lots of diffusion, but I don't think I could do much more in the way of absorption without making the place feel like a padded cell.

Amir's measurements of the KEF Q350 suggest that it will be plump in the mid-bass, with a slight shelf boost above 100Hz. If so, there might be too much mid-bass in this room. Amir's Q350 in-room response graph:

index.php


OK, if I do go looking for passive speakers in the $700 to $1000 a pair range....

I have a 1990s vintage Hafler P1000 amplifier I can use (55W/ch 4 ohms), which I believe is a competent amplifier.

That would leave a few hundred dollars for DSP room correction. The miniDSP FLEX 2x4 looks attractive. Does the current REW support the miniDSP FLEX at 96kHz sample rate? It only supports up to 48kHz for the original miniDSP. I suppose if that support doesn't exist now, it would likely be added in the future.

Would the KEF Q350 be a better choice than Revel M16?

S-t-r-e-t-c-h it to Revel M106? Save up for the miniDSP later? The super-low distortion Amir measured is attractive. "Total absence of distortion above 500Hz" at 86dB SPL 1m.

index.php


And of course, the elephant in the room is going to be the KEF LS50 Meta at $1300. Since I don't need (or want) high SPLs, and I don't need super-low bass response, that would be the 'high end audiophile-approved' choice, and it also happens to measure very well (deemed "excellent" by Amir).

OK, sorry for thinking out loud in public like this.
 
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I would just go to the review index, sort for listener preference score, then go down the list until you find something you like/can afford.

You say "it's not the tightest, fastest sounding bass I've heard." What you are hearing is also attributable to the room. Best thing is to get a dsp, a microphone and REW, then correct the bass, then it will be tighter. With room correction you can't have too much bass, having more extension/output just gives you more flexibility. In the listener preference algorithm bass extension has a strong effect on preference and shouldn't be ignored.
 

alex-z

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My listening room is a bit of a challenge. One of the reasons I prefer near-field listening is that I don't have to go to extremes with room treatment that way. I have applied some basic absorption and diffusion, using black foam block constructions in strategic locations (corners, behind the speakers, behind the listening position. The room sounds pretty good. It has a flutter echo which is impossible to get rid of completely, as the listening room is open to another room on one side and a hallway to the door on the other, with a large glass sliding door on one side (for which I have vertical blinds and a curtain to dampen the reflection). There's lots of diffusion, but I don't think I could do much more in the way of absorption without making the place feel like a padded cell.

Amir's measurements of the KEF Q350 suggest that it will be plump in the mid-bass, with a slight shelf boost above 100Hz. If so, there might be too much mid-bass in this room. Amir's Q350 in-room response graph:



That would leave a few hundred dollars for DSP room correction. The miniDSP FLEX 2x4 looks attractive. Does the current REW support the miniDSP FLEX at 96kHz sample rate? It only supports up to 48kHz for the original miniDSP. I suppose if that support doesn't exist now, it would likely be added in the future.

Would the KEF Q350 be a better choice than Revel M16?

S-t-r-e-t-c-h it to Revel M106? Save up for the miniDSP later? The super-low distortion Amir measured is attractive. "Total absence of distortion above 500Hz" at 86dB SPL 1m.


And of course, the elephant in the room is going to be the KEF LS50 Meta at $1300. Since I don't need (or want) high SPLs, and I don't need super-low bass response, that would be the 'high end audiophile-approved' choice, and it also happens to measure very well (deemed "excellent" by Amir).

OK, sorry for thinking out loud in public like this.

Acoustic foam that is 1-2" thick is hardly proper acoustic treatment. That sort of stuff will only absorb properly down to about 1000Hz, and most rooms need treatment that reaches down into the mid-bass region of 100-200Hz. I consider 3.5" mineral wool to be the minimum realistic option, with 5.5" being preferred.

If you are willing to use DSP, on-axis frequency response is nearly irrelevant. You can pull out 1-2dB of mid-bass on the Q350 with about 3 seconds of work.

Yes, the miniDSP Flex supports 96kHz. Although it does drop to 48kHz when using Dirac Live. I don't see that as a loss, that is still enough for lossless audio until 24000Hz, due to the Nyquist Theorem. Highest frequency which be can represented accurately is 1/2 the sampling rate, and nobody on earth reliably hears above 20000Hz, with most people only reaching 15000Hz.

Low order harmonic distortion falls under perceptual masking in nearly all circumstances. I would only pick the Revel M16 or M106 if you were intending to play them loudly, above 95dB.

The LS50 Meta is badly priced at $1300 IMO, despite having super low tweeter distortion. At the end of the day, it is still a 2 way speaker with a 5.25" woofer, which severely limits its peak SPL and bass extension. You can pick up a pair of refurb KEF R3 with 5 year warranty for $1500. Those are better in every way.
 

Michou

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Hi there,

I figure this might be a good place to ask for shopping advice, since it's difficult to personally audition all the speakers there are out there in the world.

A few years ago, Amir's review of the LSR305 sealed the deal for me, and I sprang for a pair of the first gen ones, as an experiment. I truly believed I'd hate them, but I wanted to hear what all the fuss was about. Long story short, they're still in my living room. I enjoy them pretty much every day.

I have a small listening room, in an apartment with downstairs neighbors who I actually like, so Klipsch or home theater style SPLs are completely out of the question. I think this is one situation where a pair of very accurate near-field monitors can be a good choice. I listen rather close to the speakers, about 4 to 6 feet away, depending on whether I've moved up close for some 'serious' listening.

I don't need more bass response than what the LSR305s deliver. They make enough bass, for sure, but it's not the tightest, fastest sounding bass I've heard. My room has a bit too much bass reinforcement as it is, and I'm not a 'bass head'. But I don't like a mid-prominent, shrieky sound (Klipsch bookshelf speakers, Lowther).

So, the question: If I want to spend about $1500 for a pair of top flight active near-field monitors that are a noticeable improvement on the LSR305s, what do you think I should listen to? I'm thinking Genelec 8030C would fit the bill. Or is Genelec 8330C better? What about Neumann KH-120? Any others that are highly recommended for home listening?

Or should I save up another $600 or so and get a pair of JBL 705p? JBL 4305P?

Or for home listening would it be better to go the traditional passive speaker route with something like a pair of Revel M16 and $500 for a good amplifier? (Is there a really good stereo amplifier for $500?)

I'm looking for small speakers with accurate frequency response, low distortion, nicely controlled horizontal dispersion, and ASR-approved :). I don't need loud, I don't need super-low bass. My room actually sounds OK if I sit close to the speakers, and 'not bad' if I move away from the listening window. But I'm definitely staying near-field for any serious listening.

What's the verdict? Is there a verdict?

Thanks for your opinions, experiences, etc.
--
I am going to suggest something I immensely enjoy in my small room: A pair of JBL Studio 530 ($300-$500) with a Klipsch Powergate streamer/amplifier (mconnect app for control) or a Nuforce DDA-120 (both discontinued) to which I added a Wiim mini. I reckon it's a thrifty setup but it provides lots of satisfying quality music while being not overly complicated. Any reasonably good integrated amplifier, say 50-100W/pc with a built-in DAC and Toslink input should also be fine. Yamaha S series and Audiolab 6000 come to mind. Other speakers which I like are the sealed, acoustic suspension NHT SuperOne 2.1, no bass reflex port, no boominess and unfussy to position Good luck.
 
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raindance

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Seeing you already like the JBL sound, the Studio 530 is a good choice. I have them as well as a few pairs of LSR305's and the Studio 530 has better, tighter, more musical bass and, to my ears, is much more refined sounding in the treble. The Elac amp with basic room correction or a Yamaha 803 stereo receiver with room correction could be good choices, or you could just keep it simple with just about any stereo amp without room correction seeing that you are listening close up.
 
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rongon

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I would just go to the review index, sort for listener preference score, then go down the list until you find something you like/can afford.

Yes, that's why I was so interested in the Genelec 8030C. Its preference score is way up there at 6.3, and it's the only speaker in the top ten that costs less than $2000 a pair. Some people have said this model doesn't sound 'complete' without a subwoofer. However, I seem to be OK with just the LSR305s full-range, so perhaps the 8030C will work for me. I'll have to pop down to the musical instrument superstore and see if I can get them to give me a listen.

The next speaker down the preference score list that comes in at <$2000/pr is the KEF LS50 Meta (pref score = 6.0). Low sensitivity and low impedance with high power demands are stumbling blocks for me with this model. I don't want to be forced into looking for a 200W/ch amplifier. Perhaps with my diminished SPL requirements this would not be an issue.

The next speaker that comes in at </=$1500 is the Revel M105, with a preference score of 5.9. That also has high power/current requirements due to low impedance minima.

Once into preference scores of 5.7 and lower, there are lots of choices. The JBL LSR308mk2 comes in at 5.6. Since multiple reviews remark on very little difference between LSR308, 306, and 305, I'm going to assume that any moves in that </=5.7 range are going to be sideways or preferential, rather than obviously 'better'.

You say "it's not the tightest, fastest sounding bass I've heard." What you are hearing is also attributable to the room. Best thing is to get a dsp, a microphone and REW, then correct the bass, then it will be tighter. With room correction you can't have too much bass, having more extension/output just gives you more flexibility. In the listener preference algorithm bass extension has a strong effect on preference and shouldn't be ignored.

Yes, I think for most people, "bass sells." For me, I listen for what the audiophools call 'detail'. I like to hear a lot of clarity in the midrange, and I really do not like a harsh 'n bright presentation in the upper mids. Perhaps I am not hearing all the midrange clarity the 305s are capable of, and I should throw room correction DSP at it. I have a ca. 2013 Windows laptop that I plan to dedicate as an 'audio PC'. I was thinking of making it my digital music player, but perhaps it would be better to make it the audio toolbox PC. It has REW on it, and I have a calibrated mic with its calibration file loaded into REW. I just need to get serious about learning to use it. Yes, perhaps you're right. I need to get serious with room correction DSP.

I'm going to try to take a listen to a pair of Genelec 8330C next to a pair of LSR305 and see if the Genelec sounds appreciably cleaner and clearer in the store. If not, then I believe that suggests room modes are all that stand in the way of better sound for me.

Incidentally, I've been a 'tube guy' for a long time, since the 1980s. It took quite a leap of faith for me to dive into active monitors in the first place. I remember hearing Genelec monitors back around 1990, at a highly respected Manhattan recording studio. Back then, Genelec monitors had an 'icy' presentation in their high frequencies (an 'electronic edge'?) that was considered too 'accurate' and 'clinical' for home audio. That coloration was real. I remember discussing it with the studio owner (a long-time recording engineer who was not some young rock guy -- this guy was a serious professional with lots of production credits to his name). He (and I) had a soft spot for good tube electronics but he was modernizing and of course needed to give his clients what they wanted. So he installed a 2.1 Genelec near-field setup, leaving his big soffit-mounted setup for those who wanted it. (I wish I could remember what his permanent-install playback system was.)

Fast forward to 2015, and I'm seeing all this fuss being made over the LSR305. After Earl Geddes pronounced the LSR308 a "good speaker" and the LSR305 came out looking so good in Amir's test -- for only $300 (ten times less money than the Genelec monitors I'd heard 25 years previously) -- I had to give them a try. I was converted. They are really astounding for that little money. That's like getting a pair of speakers for $200 and an amplifier for $100 that perform that well. Crazy. I love this 21st century tech.

So now that I'm convinced, I'd like to take the speaker/amp combo to the next level -- if necessary, or even possible.

Does a $300 pair of powered speakers + DSP room compensation beat $1500 powered speakers with no DSP room compensation?
 
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Peluvius

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Does a $300 pair of powered speakers + DSP room compensation beat $1500 powered speakers with no DSP room compensation?

If you are listening nearfield then I would say no unless sub 300Hz is particularly critical to you (and even then probably not). Go the $1500 speakers then add DSP as an upgrade down stream. Many Active options will get you basic DSP capabilities as well so you can play around with REW, onboard DSP and room treatment in the meantime.
 

RobL

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Where are you located? I have some 705p’s that are going to go on a fire sale here shortly as soon as my new speakers arrive. :)
The 705’s have built in eq that is very helpful addressing room modes etc.
 
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Does a $300 pair of powered speakers + DSP room compensation beat $1500 powered speakers with no DSP room compensation?

Obviously it depends on the room and the speakers. In Floyd Toole's book "Sound Reproduction" there are examples of $300 speakers beating $1500+ speakers in double blind testing without any room correction at all.

The 305P isn't a perfect speaker, but it does have good directivity and good bass extension so I think it's a good candidate for DSP. Above a couple hundred Hz you can eq the speaker itself, eg fix the upward tilt, the resonance at 1.7kHz and the broad dip around 600Hz. Then below ~~200Hz correct the room. I think this would be a much more fruitful investment than new speakers.
 
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I'll add, if you're concerned about digitizing your analog audio, your speaker already does that for you. I think the onboard amplifier on the LSR305 is something like an STA350 with on-chip dsp based crossover.

An alternative to room correction might be a bit of careful digital parametric EQing with something like miniDSP 2x4.
 
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rongon

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The 305P isn't a perfect speaker, but it does have good directivity and good bass extension so I think it's a good candidate for DSP. Above a couple hundred Hz you can eq the speaker itself, eg fix the upward tilt, the resonance at 1.7kHz and the broad dip around 600Hz. Then below ~~200Hz correct the room. I think this would be a much more fruitful investment than new speakers.

Taking another look at Amir's measurements of 305P, 306P and 308P, it looks like the 308P (mk2) is the smoothest and closest to flat of the lot. I wonder if I'd notice any improvement at all over the 305P (original series)?
 
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Right, the 308P also has the highest listener preference score. I bought some 306Ps on black friday in 2018 for $76 each, had the spinorama graphs been available I would have purchased the 308 instead. I was worried the woofer and tweeter of the 308 wouldn't be well matched, but that was unfounded.

If I were shopping for speakers on a budget I would buy the 308p + mini dsp 2x4 + calibrated microphone. With a larger budget I might buy Genelec + a more sophisticated DSP, such as the DDRC24.
 
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Also see this: https://www.harman.com/documents/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt3_0.pdf

Read the whole thing, but also on p17 there is a nice example of a subwoofer that rings like a bell in the room. The author fixed it up with a bit of parametric EQing, which fixed both the frequency response and the ringing in the time domain. Most rooms have problems with bass, so I think bare minimum it's good to get a mic to see what's actually happening.
 

Old Listener

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Hi there,

I figure this might be a good place to ask for shopping advice, since it's difficult to personally audition all the speakers there are out there in the world.

A few years ago, Amir's review of the LSR305 sealed the deal for me, and I sprang for a pair of the first gen ones, as an experiment. I truly believed I'd hate them, but I wanted to hear what all the fuss was about. Long story short, they're still in my living room. I enjoy them pretty much every day.

I have a small listening room, in an apartment with downstairs neighbors who I actually like, so Klipsch or home theater style SPLs are completely out of the question. I think this is one situation where a pair of very accurate near-field monitors can be a good choice. I listen rather close to the speakers, about 4 to 6 feet away, depending on whether I've moved up close for some 'serious' listening.

I don't need more bass response than what the LSR305s deliver. They make enough bass, for sure, but it's not the tightest, fastest sounding bass I've heard. My room has a bit too much bass reinforcement as it is, and I'm not a 'bass head'. But I don't like a mid-prominent, shrieky sound (Klipsch bookshelf speakers, Lowther).

So, the question: If I want to spend about $1500 for a pair of top flight active near-field monitors that are a noticeable improvement on the LSR305s, what do you think I should listen to? I'm thinking Genelec 8030C would fit the bill. Or is Genelec 8330C better? What about Neumann KH-120? Any others that are highly recommended for home listening?

Or should I save up another $600 or so and get a pair of JBL 705p? JBL 4305P?

Or for home listening would it be better to go the traditional passive speaker route with something like a pair of Revel M16 and $500 for a good amplifier? (Is there a really good stereo amplifier for $500?)

I'm looking for small speakers with accurate frequency response, low distortion, nicely controlled horizontal dispersion, and ASR-approved :). I don't need loud, I don't need super-low bass. My room actually sounds OK if I sit close to the speakers, and 'not bad' if I move away from the listening window. But I'm definitely staying near-field for any serious listening.

What's the verdict? Is there a verdict?

Thanks for your opinions, experiences, etc.
--
Spent $ 100 on a miniDSP measurement mic., install REW s/w on your computer and see what's going on with your current speakers in your room. Then consider adding dsp to your current system.

You will learn more about what's lacking in your current system and then you can upgrade intelligently (if necessary) rather than blindly "upgrading" to more expensive speakers.
 

Dj7675

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Yes, that's why I was so interested in the Genelec 8030C. Its preference score is way up there at 6.3, and it's the only speaker in the top ten that costs less than $2000 a pair. Some people have said this model doesn't sound 'complete' without a subwoofer. However, I seem to be OK with just the LSR305s full-range, so perhaps the 8030C will work for me. I'll have to pop down to the musical instrument superstore and see if I can get them to give me a listen.

The next speaker down the preference score list that comes in at <$2000/pr is the KEF LS50 Meta (pref score = 6.0). Low sensitivity and low impedance with high power demands are stumbling blocks for me with this model. I don't want to be forced into looking for a 200W/ch amplifier. Perhaps with my diminished SPL requirements this would not be an issue.

The next speaker that comes in at </=$1500 is the Revel M105, with a preference score of 5.9. That also has high power/current requirements due to low impedance minima.

Once into preference scores of 5.7 and lower, there are lots of choices. The JBL LSR308mk2 comes in at 5.6. Since multiple reviews remark on very little difference between LSR308, 306, and 305, I'm going to assume that any moves in that </=5.7 range are going to be sideways or preferential, rather than obviously 'better'.



Yes, I think for most people, "bass sells." For me, I listen for what the audiophools call 'detail'. I like to hear a lot of clarity in the midrange, and I really do not like a harsh 'n bright presentation in the upper mids. Perhaps I am not hearing all the midrange clarity the 305s are capable of, and I should throw room correction DSP at it. I have a ca. 2013 Windows laptop that I plan to dedicate as an 'audio PC'. I was thinking of making it my digital music player, but perhaps it would be better to make it the audio toolbox PC. It has REW on it, and I have a calibrated mic with its calibration file loaded into REW. I just need to get serious about learning to use it. Yes, perhaps you're right. I need to get serious with room correction DSP.

I'm going to try to take a listen to a pair of Genelec 8330C next to a pair of LSR305 and see if the Genelec sounds appreciably cleaner and clearer in the store. If not, then I believe that suggests room modes are all that stand in the way of better sound for me.

Incidentally, I've been a 'tube guy' for a long time, since the 1980s. It took quite a leap of faith for me to dive into active monitors in the first place. I remember hearing Genelec monitors back around 1990, at a highly respected Manhattan recording studio. Back then, Genelec monitors had an 'icy' presentation in their high frequencies (an 'electronic edge'?) that was considered too 'accurate' and 'clinical' for home audio. That coloration was real. I remember discussing it with the studio owner (a long-time recording engineer who was not some young rock guy -- this guy was a serious professional with lots of production credits to his name). He (and I) had a soft spot for good tube electronics but he was modernizing and of course needed to give his clients what they wanted. So he installed a 2.1 Genelec near-field setup, leaving his big soffit-mounted setup for those who wanted it. (I wish I could remember what his permanent-install playback system was.)

Fast forward to 2015, and I'm seeing all this fuss being made over the LSR305. After Earl Geddes pronounced the LSR308 a "good speaker" and the LSR305 came out looking so good in Amir's test -- for only $300 (ten times less money than the Genelec monitors I'd heard 25 years previously) -- I had to give them a try. I was converted. They are really astounding for that little money. That's like getting a pair of speakers for $200 and an amplifier for $100 that perform that well. Crazy. I love this 21st century tech.

So now that I'm convinced, I'd like to take the speaker/amp combo to the next level -- if necessary, or even possible.

Does a $300 pair of powered speakers + DSP room compensation beat $1500 powered speakers with no DSP room compensation?
My only comment is that I would be very reluctant to use the speaker preference score to select a speaker.
Edit: It’s not that I don’t find them useful and interesting. But some things that are important aren’t in the preference score… how loud they play, compression, distortion etc etc… It also doesn’t take into account if you have EQ in your system. For example I have had the 308p and the 708p. 308P preference score is 5.8 and 708p is 5. Having had both in room, the 708p is quite a lot better and more capable speaker. While others will disagree, this is where I think speaker listening tests by Amir have value. If you can somehow get 2-3 new speakers to test against the 305p I think you will be able to determine what works best for you in your room.
 
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rongon

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Thanks everyone for your advice. This has been very interesting. I feel I've learned quite a bit.
  1. I was reading a thread here about the allegedly 'useless' nature of the Harman Preference Score. My understanding is that the preference score is a formula that takes the preferences taken from double-blind testing a wide range of listeners and applies that data to come up with a 'likability' score for a particular loudspeaker product. It is not an 'ultimate reproduction accuracy' score. It may be that I should not take the preference score so seriously. It's really more of a yardstick for narrowing down choices to a relative few.

    As an example, the JBL 705p (4.7) is simply murdered by the LSR 308p (5.6). Does that mean the 308p is a better speaker, and I will like it better? Or does the 308p go lower, and that generates a higher preference score?

    The Genelec 8030C (6.3), KEF LS50 Meta (6.0) and Revel M105 (5.9) are all well above the LSR 308p. Does that mean I should just forget JBL entirely?

    I think it means for an average listener, it's more likely that listener will prefer the sound from a Genelec 8030C over a JBL 705p, by a probability of 1.6 points. That looks like a rout; like a 'sure thing' on paper.

    Dang... So exactly how does this help me?

  2. Through most of this thread, the emphasis has been on bass response. I get it. Ever since I was a teen (a long, long time ago, back in the days of Maxell cassettes and quadraphonic LPs), the emphasis has always been on bass. Tight, clean, low, loud bass. Well -- That has never been my priority. I'm a midrange clarity freak. I like all those silly audiophile tricks like 'clarity, liquidity, depth, air, soundstaging' and so on. I know there are people here at ASR who don't believe in them; believe they are artifacts of colorations, distortions, room modes, etc. OK. That's cool. I still like that stuff, and I know I'm hearing it when I hear it. That's what made my jaw drop when I heard the LSR 305p for the first time. It can do a lot of that stuff, at $300 a pair with the amplifiers included. Such a deal!

  3. I believe a really good small speaker can beat a large speaker in small spaces at limited dynamic levels. Of course here I have an application where I have a small space (24' L x 12' W x 8' H with a hall and a room opening out from the sides of the main room). I have an application where I do not need high SPLs -- especially at bass frequencies. I do not want to antagonize my neighbors. Yes, that means I'm looking for a 'glorified table radio' of sorts.
Given a limited budget, in what ways can a small speaker beat a big speaker? From my experience: in midrange clarity, possibly because a smaller LF driver can be matched more easily to the HF driver, hopefully allowing for a better performing crossover at a given price point.

Another trend I've noticed is that machines made with very high headroom for their task run cooler, last longer, and perform better under a wider variety of loads. That's why I was thinking the JBL 705p might float my boat. The compression tweeter driver will be able to handle gobs higher SPLs than I will ever demand of it. I presume its 5" woofer is a little beast, made for much higher SPLs than I would ever demand of it. The LF driver is small, the HF driver is relatively large. The safe operating range of both should overlap by quite a bit (neither driver working at the outer reaches of their capabilities). Add the built in amplifiers, super-accurate (I presume) crossover, basic parametric EQ/DSP for correcting gross room modes, and I think it sounds like a compelling solution. The glaring limitations are the lack of low bass and high SPL capabilities. Fortunately, those are the two capabilities I can live without.

Can the same be said for the Genelec 8330? I think so. But perhaps not. Are its drivers as heavy-duty as the JBL's ?

And none of the above, as far as I can tell, has anything at all to do with low bass response (really, I could roll it off below 50Hz and be OK).

So my question boils down to:

What is the absolute lowest distortion/highest clarity but restricted bass/limited SPL loudspeaker for apartment dwellers?

30 years ago the accepted answer would have been "LS3/5A". Perhaps today that means LS50 Meta. Or does it?

So far, my check-it-out list is:
- Genelec 8030 or 8330
- Neumann KH 120
- JBL LSR 308P
- JBL 705P
- KEF LS50 Meta
- Revel M105
- Revel M16
- JBL Studio 530

I know I will not get to hear these side-by-side, let alone anything like a double-blind test. This may take a while.
 
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