Beta-test: DeltaWave Null Comparison software

[Rantapossu]

@pkane I found some bugs when testing Deltawave.

First the simple one. When recording the device and channel settings are not stored.

The initial settings with ASIO device and stereo channels:

After shutting down the recorder window and opening it again, it always changes to the default Windows sound device (WASAPI) and left channel:

 

[Rantapossu]

Then a bit more complicated one.

If the "Compare" -file is removed from the file system using the file explorer and the "Record" -action is selected, it gives an error:

It shouldn't care if there isn't the previous "Compare" -file available or not, when it's going to replace it anyway.

 

[pkane]

Then a bit more complicated one.

If the "Compare" -file is removed from the file system using the file explorer and the "Record" -action is selected, it gives an error:

View attachment 235167
View attachment 235168

It shouldn't care if there isn't the previous "Compare" -file available or not, when it's going to replace it anyway.

Thanks, @Rantapossu. As I said, there is an updated version of DeltaWave (2.0.7) that should have some of these issues already fixed. I didn't finish testing it yet, and so didn't post it. But now that you've volunteered to test I'll give you the download link to try it. Let me know if you still see some of the same problems:

https://app.box.com/s/m47xnko28ahgjyzakqaplnysm8gkgdos

 

[Rantapossu]

Thanks, @Rantapossu. As I said, there is an updated version of DeltaWave (2.0.7) that should have some of these issues already fixed. I didn't finish testing it yet, and so didn't post it. But now that you've volunteered to test I'll give you the download link to try it. Let me know if you still see some of the same problems:

https://app.box.com/s/m47xnko28ahgjyzakqaplnysm8gkgdos

Thanks, I will test this one.

 

[Rantapossu]

The first bug is partly fixed when using the v2.0.7 version:

The initial settings:

It remembers the channel settings but forgets the output device when doing a new record:

The missing "Compare" -file still gives the error:

 

[Rantapossu]

When selecting the output device on the main window before the recording...

... it remembers the setting when doing a new record:

 

[Rantapossu]

This one needs a bit more preparation.

First make a record with a lot of attenuation to make the bug easier to spot. Use only the left channel when using the ASIO (WASAPI can be Stereo):

When the record is done and analyzed, close the recorder window.

Listen the "Reference", "Compare" and "Delta" results:

The "Reference" and "Compare" should sound about the same, "Delta" should be completely or almost silent.

Then select "Record" from the menu, but don't start a new record. Close the "Record" -window right away and listen the "Reference", "Compare" and "Delta" results again.

Now the "Reference" is still the same as before, "Compare" is the -20 dB attenuated record and "Delta" is played at the same level as the "Reference".

In my opinion the files should not be replaced or altered when "Record" -action is selected from the menu and the "Record" -window opens, they should only be replaced after the red "Record" -button is pressed on the "Record" -window. Or even better, after the recording is ready and analyzed, if the user presses the "Stop" -button during the record when changing his/her mind.

With this current behaviour you loose your records if you just for example open the record window to check your previous recording levels and channel settings.

 

[Rantapossu]

V2.07 establishes a new bug when using the R and Stereo -records with ASIO:


Using the R out -> R in with ASIO...

...the "Compare" -file is recorded as a digital silent:

Using the Stereo out -> Stereo in with ASIO...

...the "Compare" -file is recorded with the silent R-channel as well:

WASAPI seems to work ok with the right channel!

 

[Rantapossu]

The ASIO right channel isn't always silent, sometimes it gives a nasty square wave record (It doesn't do good for the headphones...). Happened twice so far.

 

[Rantapossu]

There's a bug too when selecting the channels for recording.

No matter what channels you choose with the output device selector (L, R or Stereo), it always plays with both channels. It doesn't matter if you use ASIO or WASAPI with this one.

 

[pkane]

There's a bug too when selecting the channels for recording.

No matter what channels you choose with the output device selector (L, R or Stereo), it always plays with both channels. It doesn't matter if you use ASIO or WASAPI with this one.

At least this part is by design It'll always output to both channels. The same channel if you only chose one, or two channels if you chose stereo.

 

[Rantapossu]

At least this part is by design It'll always output to both channels. The same channel if you only chose one, or two channels if you chose stereo.

Oh! But don't worry, I have still a lot of real bugs to report

 

[pkane]

Oh! But don't worry, I have still a lot of real bugs to report

Do I look worried?

 

[Rantapossu]

@pkane there are serious obstacles for the first time user when installing DeltaWave (Even with the "stable" version 2.0.4):

When doing the fresh install, there is no "C:\ProgramData\DeltaWave" -directory and because of that, no "_DeltaWaveDefault.dw" -file too:

When the program starts after "OK" -button and the "Record" -menu is selected, there's another error message:

After browsing some random wav-file just to get past the previous error:

and selecting the "Record" -menu again, the "Recorder" -window opens:

After hitting the red "Record" -button comes a new error message:

That's because the WASAPI Exclusive Mode is on by default (Neither of my test rigs works with "Exclusive mode" regardless the sound card. I think that I'm not the only person in the world that has problems with the Exclusive Mode. I think that the default setting should be "Off".)

When ticking if off, it starts to record.

Sometimes it get past the "Compute drift" -portion, sometime it doesn't:

Because there is no "Default settings" -file for the new install, the "Measure simple waveform" is not ticked on:

Activating it makes my two computers to go past the "Compute drift" -portion.

But if the measurement manages to complete, the results are inferior:

I haven't yet found the setting that makes the results go to the normal level:

These obstacles could be to much for the new user to resolve...

 

[Rantapossu]

I haven't yet found the setting that makes the results go to the normal level:

Now I have

... and ...

Should the "Level EQ" and the "Phase EQ" be active right after the fresh install?

 

[pkane]

Should the "Level EQ" and the "Phase EQ" be active right after the fresh install?

No. These are advanced settings and correct for things that you shouldn't just automatically remove, since they can easily be real, audible errors.

 

[pkane]

@pkane there are serious obstacles for the first time user when installing DeltaWave (Even with the "stable" version 2.0.4):

When doing the fresh install, there is no "C:\ProgramData\DeltaWave" -directory and because of that, no "_DeltaWaveDefault.dw" -file too:

View attachment 236146

When the program starts after "OK" -button and the "Record" -menu is selected, there's another error message:

View attachment 236147

After browsing some random wav-file just to get past the previous error:

View attachment 236148

and selecting the "Record" -menu again, the "Recorder" -window opens:

View attachment 236153

After hitting the red "Record" -button comes a new error message:

View attachment 236154

That's because the WASAPI Exclusive Mode is on by default (Neither of my test rigs works with "Exclusive mode" regardless the sound card. I think that I'm not the only person in the world that has problems with the Exclusive Mode. I think that the default setting should be "Off".)

View attachment 236169

When ticking if off, it starts to record.

Sometimes it get past the "Compute drift" -portion, sometime it doesn't:

View attachment 236156

Because there is no "Default settings" -file for the new install, the "Measure simple waveform" is not ticked on:

View attachment 236159

Activating it makes my two computers to go past the "Compute drift" -portion.

But if the measurement manages to complete, the results are inferior:

View attachment 236171

I haven't yet found the setting that makes the results go to the normal level:

View attachment 236173

These obstacles could be to much for the new user to resolve...

I think you need a little background in how to use DeltaWave before testing This is not designed to be an automatic piece of software that works for every possible test recording and configuration. There are many options that are there to help deal with different test conditions and which you chose depends on what it is you're trying to test for. Just running it on automatic isn't going to produce useful results in most cases.

 

[pkane]

Now I have

View attachment 236300
View attachment 236301

... and ...

View attachment 236298
View attachment 236299


Should the "Level EQ" and the "Phase EQ" be active right after the fresh install?

Here's a suggestion. Start by resetting all settings to default. After that, don't touch these settings unless you know for sure that you need to change something. You can uncheck WASAPI exclusive if that doesn't work -- how that works was changed in the untested version. You may also want to check the Auto-trim option, as that removes portions of the waveforms at start and end that don't match. Otherwise, these parts will be included in the calculation of the difference:



Now, try recording two successive recordings of 20-30 seconds using the same exact loopback configuration. Use real music, not simple tones or measurement test signals. Then try to match these two recordings to each other. Do they match to each other? Do they match better than to -90dBFS RMS null? If not, you need to investigate your setup and fix it so that the null is at or better than a 16 bit system is capable of. In most cases, this null should be better than -100dBFS.

Once you get that working, you can try changing hardware configuration between runs, but keep the settings the same.

 

[Rantapossu]

Here's a suggestion. Start by resetting all settings to default. After that, don't touch these settings unless you know for sure that you need to change something. You can uncheck WASAPI exclusive if that doesn't work -- how that works was changed in the untested version. You may also want to check the Auto-trim option, as that removes portions of the waveforms at start and end that don't match. Otherwise, these parts will be included in the calculation of the difference:

View attachment 236314

Now, try recording two successive recordings of 20-30 seconds using the same exact loopback configuration. Use real music, not simple tones or measurement test signals. Then try to match these two recordings to each other. Do they match to each other? Do they match better than to -90dBFS RMS null? If not, you need to investigate your setup and fix it so that the null is at or better than a 16 bit system is capable of. In most cases, this null should be better than -100dBFS.

Once you get that working, you can try changing hardware configuration between runs, but keep the settings the same.

Thanks!

Three cards and two successive recordings per card: -95.4dB, -98.0dB and -106.5dB between the two runs. The first one is the card that I used to take the screenshots of my previous posts. There isn't problems with this kind of comparisons, but with the cheap cards there's huge difference with the original reference file and the first recording of it.

The idea of my post was that DeltaWave gives an error message even before the first startup after a fresh install because there is no configuration file yet and a few other settings might be better to be different by default (Like WASAPI Exclusive) for an easier start. And there shouldn't be an error message when the reference file is empty and you select the "Record" from the menu if there's the same selection for the reference file on the "Recorder" window and you can select it there.

"Auto-trim start & end" could also be on after the fresh install, it's very useful...

 

[pkane]

Thanks!

Three cards and two successive recordings per card: -95.4dB, -98.0dB and -106.5dB between the two runs. The first one is the card that I used to take the screenshots of my previous posts. There isn't problems with this kind of comparisons, but with the cheap cards there's huge difference with the original reference file and the first recording of it.

The idea of my post was that DeltaWave gives an error message even before the first startup after a fresh install because there is no configuration file yet and a few other settings might be better to be different by default (Like WASAPI Exclusive) for an easier start. And there shouldn't be an error message when the reference file is empty and you select the "Record" from the menu if there's the same selection for the reference file on the "Recorder" window and you can select it there.

"Auto-trim start & end" could also be on after the fresh install, it's very useful...

The initial missing config file error will be fixed, along with the missing reference file, if none are selected.
WASAPI exclusive is the preferred way to measure, which is why it's the default.
I'll think about turning on auto-trim. I do agree it's useful in many more cases than it's not