Why do subwoofers have better bass than large speakers?

[Soundstage]

Where have you understood this from? Reference / link to statistics? All major brands still have the same amount of bookshelf speakers in their lineups that they always had, indicating these are probably still in demand.



I never got this argument against bookshelf speakers. This has always been the case, without deterring people who want bookshelf speakers from purchasing them. Some actually put them on bookshelfs or other furniture, where your argument no longer holds. For those who don't, speakers on stands take up less visual space than a tower speaker. This is obviously preferrable to some people, evidenced by the fact that both these kinds of speakers as well as stands are present in the marketplace. Finally it's cheaper to build (and buy) a smaller speaker, and it may make sense to do so if you are going to use a subwoofer anyway.

Also much easier to move around!

 

[Recluse-Animator]

Dolby digital spec least when it changed current specs around when it was introduced ?
70mm some rumour it could go below 30Hz
CDS came about digital six channel according to specs 20Hz is lowest for all channels .
SR-D spec shows it can do 5Hz to 120Hz though the 120Hz cut off used to be bit higher for 70mm . SR-D handles 5Hz to 20,000KHz for all rest full range channels . so technical depending on some rare mixes that surface once in while with lows going below 20Hz down into the infersonic range where really need bass shakers .
it be very complex to have arrays of subs assigned with crossover cut off at 20Hz -24dB so say have x8 18" that will only handle range 5Hz to 20Hz .
next array of x8 subs handle the range 20Hz to 120Hz with cutoff at 20Hz to keep out any infersonic lows . it's theoretically doable , theoretically .

Are you saying that if someone has 16 18" subs they shouldn't use them all from 120Hz to 5Hz, but 8 subs from 120Hz to 20Hz and the other 8 subs from 20Hz to 5Hz?
If so then how about if someone has 4 18" subs. 2 subs from 120Hz to 20Hz and the other 2 subs from 20Hz to 5Hz?

 

[Georgios]

18” subs? lol, my room cannot even afford to place KH810.

 

[Andysu]

18” subs? lol, my room cannot even afford to place KH810.

my room is smaller than yours . even though the present amount anywhere from 2 to 4 or 6 even 8 . subs on the floor well where else would they be lol . 4 at the front , 2 at the back of the room . and i can send sub bass low at , Lc Rc or use combination of it and the rest of the subs total 8 . i may think of adding some more for total 9 . yet my room is smaller than yours . yes 18" pro cinema subs are not easy to move around in small room . most of them behind the at-screen . i seen other rooms larger than mine using x8 subs other rooms using 30 subs . a 50" sub seems like expensive and yeah , not easy to move around and may need few of them as nulls are still an issue need few at front few at the back to even out the sub frequency smoothness .

12" subs are manageable to move around and more of them can be placed around the front on the floor few of them raised up away from the floor and same for back of the room .

a black hole in space in the vast expanding universe yet anything that gets near to it is pulled in . a sub should be i guess located middle of the room beneath wooden floor and one above it in the ceiling . would that give an equal low end smoothness at all frequencies in the room ? i not saying the subs should pull one into-wards it lol . and how does one get air blowing around in a room . seems to work in small cars vans . why not the bathroom ? personally i find that air blowing effect and the pressure on the ear to be unnaturally SPL dB dangerous .

 

[Cbdb2]

Sorry to derail, but that is not true. We lose ability to distinguish tone at 20 Hz, but we can percieve sound. It is called infrasound.

Hearing at low and infrasonic frequencies - PubMed

The human perception of sound at frequencies below 200 Hz is reviewed. Knowledge about our perception of this frequency range is important, since much of the sound we are exposed to in our everyday environment contains significant energy in this range. Sound at 20-200 Hz is called low-frequency...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And there are big subs that reach in that infrasound territory.

Is there a benefit to music? I believe there is.

Sure if you want to feel the trucks going past the studio, or the AC rumble. Most music has nothing down there, so its removed by the engineer to make room for the music.

 

[sarumbear]

Sure if you want to feel the trucks going past the studio, or the AC rumble. Most music has nothing down there, so its removed by the engineer to make room for the music.

Unless you are watching an action movie for which subwoofers are invented for. Look up LFE.

 

[polmuaddib]

Most music has nothing down there

Real music isn't pure sheet music, it doesn't sound like MIDI track on a 90s PC. All the sounds that accompany the instruments, the pick sound, the breathing of the musician, the undertones of a kick drum... make up for the experience we enjoy.
Also, there is no brickwall at 20 Hz. We are not that sensitive to infrasound, true, but we percieve nuances.

 

[sarumbear]

Real music isn't pure sheet music, it doesn't sound like MIDI track on a 90s PC. All the sounds that accompany the instruments, the pick sound, the breathing of the musician, the undertones of a kick drum... make up for the experience we enjoy.
Also, there is no brickwall at 20 Hz. We are not that sensitive to infrasound, true, but we percieve nuances.

Every live recording involves filtering low frequencies purely to stop the artefacts like foots hitting a microphone stand, air conditioning, traffic rumble. No recording engineer will allow them to be recorded because they are not part of the music. (Unless you are recording special instruments like church organ.)

 

[Chrispy]

Every live recording involves filtering low frequencies purely to stop the artefacts like foots hitting a microphone stand, air conditioning, traffic rumble. No recording engineer will allow them to be recorded because they are not part of the music. (Unless you are recording special instruments like church organ.)

Or synthesizers....

 

[sarumbear]

Or synthesizers....

We are talking about the bass frequency issues when recording with a microphone.

 

[Chrispy]

We are talking recording with a microphone.

Why limit the subject to that? I missed it if that was the case.

 

[sarumbear]

Why limit the subject to that? I missed it if that was the case.

Because I started my post that you replied with “Every live recording…”

 

[Chrispy]

Because I started my post that you replied with “Every live recording…”

Ah....so a live event might not have direct feeds to a recording from a synth? Don't know about that....

 

[sarumbear]

Ah....so a live event might not have direct feeds to a recording from a synth? Don't know about that....

That’s not the norm because a synthesiser’s sound, like it is with an electric guitar, is very much effected with the amplifier/speaker cabinets. If the musician doesn’t hear the final sound he can’t be sure what they are playing. That’s why microphones are positioned in front of the cabinets. In a studio you can use direct injection because you can listen the recorded sound as fold back but even then musicians still prefer the sound from a cabinet. A cabinet is part of the instrument.

 

[Chrispy]

That’s not the norm because a synthesiser’s sound, like it is with an electric guitar, is very much effected with the amplifier/speaker cabinets. If the musician doesn’t hear the final sound he can’t be sure what they are playing. That’s why microphones are positioned in front of the cabinets. In a studio you can use direct injection because you can listen the recorded sound as fold back but even then musicians still prefer the sound from a cabinet. A cabinet is part of the instrument.

True enough, but think I've read of some who had both going on for recording purposes particularly....it's been a while tho and on the obscure side....just wasn't concentrating on live recordings of such either due gneral thread....

 

[Andysu]

Real music isn't pure sheet music, it doesn't sound like MIDI track on a 90s PC. All the sounds that accompany the instruments, the pick sound, the breathing of the musician, the undertones of a kick drum... make up for the experience we enjoy.
Also, there is no brickwall at 20 Hz. We are not that sensitive to infrasound, true, but we percieve nuances.

i sense a pressure wave on my ears at certain low level spl level then if increase . anyone got their mics then put on the RTA what else can you see on the RTA . now then .

 

[polmuaddib]

Every live recording involves filtering low frequencies

I didn't know that. It makes sense. But I don't think it is brickwalled.

These are three different songs I chose randomly and analized their spectrum in Audacity.
And you can see that the content below 20 Hz is filtered and attenuated, but not gone completely. You can see it is even louder, in some parts of the song, then 800 Hz parts.
How audible that spectrum below 20 Hz is? It is very faint, but I believe it is audible with speakers that reach that low...
I could be very wrong, of course.

 

[Sancus]

You can see it is even louder, in some parts of the song, then 800 Hz parts.
How audible that spectrum below 20 Hz is?

At 20hz, 120dB = 80dB @ 800hz(ish.. it's very close to 1khz). 110dB = 60dB, 100dB = 40dB.

So for a sound to be equally audible at 20hz as at 800hz, it must be 40-60dB louder.

 

[Andysu]

indiana jones and the last crusade , scene where indy looking down at abyssal drop off , needs get to the other side can't see the transparent rock leading across to the other side . the deepness depth of the bass rumbles my THX cinema . this is waterfall laserdisc , the dvd first pressing is fairly close . i don't know of blu 4k , not interested with bad track record of filtering low end off on 4k atmos discs i think i keep the laserdisc and early dvd edition .

low end is going down below 20Hz for laserdisc . hail theatrical unaltered laserdisc mixes in Dolby Stereo THX . and yeah , i not blind ! i see roll-off . it is almost reaching onto 5Hz . stuff that with blu atmos eat this .

in the live video i tested the laserdisc vs first edition dvd . i may upgrade the dvd to region 1 , but i ain't touching the atmos version .

did this few years ago , interstellar , seems the dtshdma has brick wall filter it not much goes below 10Hz , yet laserdisc above was managing near close to 5Hz .

my THX cinema does well on low end . other laserdisc , recent , dracula 1979 Dolby Stereo

theatrical sound mix print release , the man with the golden gun , mono mix . so what does spectrum lab see with the OBE sw output ?

titanic , LFE.1 . i forget which pressing theatrical dvd or SE edition on dvd . i have the laserdisc AC-3 and dts pressings .

 

[Sokel]

About music,my nephew decided to try an electric bass guitar along with his classical studies.
Searching to built a two 15" cabinet all the pro bass speaker companies (like eminence for example) recommend an HPF at 30-35-40Hz and very steep in some occasions.
There is content down to 20Hz in music,but not as much as we think,it's really rare and I have posted some similar content myself in Bass thread.