Why do subwoofers have better bass than large speakers?

[thewas]

and finally they are typically active with DSP, which means that they use EQ/filters to adjust the response to add more low end extension than would otherwise be possible in an identical passive speaker.

Exactly (although not necessarily a DSP is needed for those filter functions), in the 80s quite some popular brands like KEF, B&W, Canton sold some external active filters with similar functions to use at the pre in / pre out or EQ or tape monitoring loop at the amplifier to enable similar deep response for some of their passive loudspeakers.
Nubert still sells some:

ATM Stand hier kaufen | Nubert

ATM Stand jetzt bei Nubert entdecken! Hochwertig verarbeitet ✓ Lieferzeit 1-3 Werktage

www.nubert.de

Here also some articles how to implement such yourself with a DSP:

Linkwitz Transform

miniDSP is a leading manufacturer of Digital Audio Signal Processors for the HomeTheater, Hifi, headphone and Automotive market. Join our large community of Audiophiles, Engineers and DIYers using our innovative products.

www.minidsp.com

Linkwitz Transformation

www.mh-audio.nl

and an example http://www.uibel.net/bauvor/bv_tutorials/linkwitz/linkwitz.html

 

[Recluse-Animator]

It‘s all relative, Neumann make 3 smaller models and 1 larger one. Most people buy 6” two ways, most of which are smaller. But yeah “not small” would be a better description than “big”

If we're talking about active near fields then most people are buying 2 ways, but I thought you meant speakers in general.
As I have understood nowadays most people buy floor standers. A stand mount speaker on a stand takes up as much real estate as a floor standing speaker, but the speaker itself is much smaller.
Sorry for off topic.

 

[Recluse-Animator]

Is it just me or is the Nubert ATM expensive? MiniDSP 2x4 is a third of the price.

 

[sigbergaudio]

As I have understood nowadays most people buy floor standers.

Where have you understood this from? Reference / link to statistics? All major brands still have the same amount of bookshelf speakers in their lineups that they always had, indicating these are probably still in demand.

A stand mount speaker on a stand takes up as much real estate as a floor standing speaker, but the speaker itself is much smaller.

I never got this argument against bookshelf speakers. This has always been the case, without deterring people who want bookshelf speakers from purchasing them. Some actually put them on bookshelfs or other furniture, where your argument no longer holds. For those who don't, speakers on stands take up less visual space than a tower speaker. This is obviously preferrable to some people, evidenced by the fact that both these kinds of speakers as well as stands are present in the marketplace. Finally it's cheaper to build (and buy) a smaller speaker, and it may make sense to do so if you are going to use a subwoofer anyway.

 

[Sancus]

I never got this argument against bookshelf speakers. This has always been the case, without deterring people who want bookshelf speakers from purchasing them.

It's also very stereo-tunnel-vision. Floorstander L/Rs with a tiny center offer little value for actual multi-channel content. And home theatre is more popular now than ever. Plus, even if you have space for L/R floorstanders, that doesn't mean you have space for floorstander surrounds, wall mounting them is popular, etc, all of which calls for bookshelves.

And that's all assuming there are floorstander equivalents of the speakers you want. Not always the case...

 

[polmuaddib]

if you hear 18hz you are an Avenger.

Sorry to derail, but that is not true. We lose ability to distinguish tone at 20 Hz, but we can percieve sound. It is called infrasound.

Hearing at low and infrasonic frequencies - PubMed

The human perception of sound at frequencies below 200 Hz is reviewed. Knowledge about our perception of this frequency range is important, since much of the sound we are exposed to in our everyday environment contains significant energy in this range. Sound at 20-200 Hz is called low-frequency...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And there are big subs that reach in that infrasound territory.

Is there a benefit to music? I believe there is.

 

[Recluse-Animator]

I never got this argument against bookshelf speakers. This has always been the case, without deterring people who want bookshelf speakers from purchasing them. Some actually put them on bookshelfs or other furniture, where your argument no longer holds. For those who don't, speakers on stands take up less visual space than a tower speaker. This is obviously preferrable to some people, evidenced by the fact that both these kinds of speakers as well as stands are present in the marketplace. Finally it's cheaper to build (and buy) a smaller speaker, and it may make sense to do so if you are going to use a subwoofer anyway.

I wrote "A stand mount speaker on a stand takes up as much real estate as a floor standing speaker" and not on any kind of furniture.

It never makes sense to get a stand mount speaker over a floor stander if there's no limitations such as budget and real estate with a sub or not.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I wrote "A stand mount speaker on a stand takes up as much real estate as a floor standing speaker" and not on any kind of furniture.

It never makes sense to get a stand mount speaker over a floor stander if there's no limitations such as budget and real estate with a sub or not.

This feels more like an opinion than a fact. What makes sense is subjective, no?

 

[Recluse-Animator]

It's also very stereo-tunnel-vision. Floorstander L/Rs with a tiny center offer little value for actual multi-channel content. And home theatre is more popular now than ever. Plus, even if you have space for L/R floorstanders, that doesn't mean you have space for floorstander surrounds, wall mounting them is popular, etc, all of which calls for bookshelves.

And that's all assuming there are floorstander equivalents of the speakers you want. Not always the case...

All centers are smaller than floor standing speakers and usually has at least one driver more than the stand mount version in the same series.
Both cases aren't ideal as L,C and R speakers should always be identical.
L,C,R, subs and room acoustics are most important in home theater and that's where most of the budget should go.
If your first priority is multichannel audio then also get identical surround speakers as L,C and R.

 

[Recluse-Animator]

This feels more like an opinion than a fact. What makes sense is subjective, no?

So you're saying a stand mount speaker measures and sound better than a floor stander of the same series?
I wonder why all flagship products are floor standing speakers from manufacturers that make both.

 

[sigbergaudio]

So you're saying a stand mount speaker measures and sound better than a floor stander of the same series?
I wonder why all flagship products are floor standing speakers from manufacturers that make both.

Strawman? Not interested in this type of discussion.

 

[Vacceo]

Sorry to derail, but that is not true. We lose ability to distinguish tone at 20 Hz, but we can percieve sound. It is called infrasound.

Hearing at low and infrasonic frequencies - PubMed

The human perception of sound at frequencies below 200 Hz is reviewed. Knowledge about our perception of this frequency range is important, since much of the sound we are exposed to in our everyday environment contains significant energy in this range. Sound at 20-200 Hz is called low-frequency...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And there are big subs that reach in that infrasound territory.

Is there a benefit to music? I believe there is.

The very start of Edge of Tomorrow is a great piece of sound to test infrasonics. Organs also reach infrasonics (listening to Bach in some cathedrals shows it).

Man, how much fun it is to get your ribcage rattling.

 

[olbobcat]

A bit unclear to me if you are still discussing this specific case or if you are asking about subwoofers in general? Subwoofers often have drivers even better suited for low end extension. A driver that is great for 300hz does not look the same as a driver that is great for 20hz. Subwoofers also often have larger internal volume for the bass driver(s) than most speakers (makes them more efficient and extends the low end), and finally they are typically active with DSP, which means that they use EQ/filters to adjust the response to add more low end extension than would otherwise be possible in an identical passive speaker.

I know BagEnd was using a JBL 18" in their one sub which did not spec down low at all. It was a 80Hz Guitar speaker. It was all EQ and DSP to get down to 18hz. I owned a Sunfire sub that would shake all the windows in my house but I could not hear any extra bass just the windows.

 

[Recluse-Animator]

Strawman? Not interested in this type of discussion.

Oh really.
A floor stander usually has more drivers, goes lower and louder and has better THD.
Even if the floor stander had the same drivers, output and THD it would go lower and more bass is always welcome and it's easier to integrate with subs.

My initial argument was That if you have the budget and the floor space for a floor stander why would you buy a stand mount.
Sure some people put them on book shelves, but that would cause problems most of the time as there's only a few cardioid speakers and they're usually much larger ( and more expensive ) than speakers people are putting on furniture.
I have yet to hear anyone who thinks a stand mounted speaker on a stand is more aesthetically pleasing than a floor stander.
People who care about aesthetics wants their speakers to look like furniture and the stands takes away this illusion.
Having custom made stands with the exact same bottom dimensions and paint / veneer as the speakers would cost as much as the difference to a floor stander unless were talking about really expensive speakers.

 

[Recluse-Animator]

The very start of Edge of Tomorrow is a great piece of sound to test infrasonics. Organs also reach infrasonics (listening to Bach in some cathedrals shows it).

Man, how much fun it is to get your ribcage rattling.

There's loads on content below 20Hz in movies and music.
10Hz is the new 20Hz. Years ago manufacturers bragged about their subs going down to 20Hz and that was enough for most consumers, but not anymore.
Today 20Hz is sub standard ( pardon the pun ) because consumers are aware that there's content below that and they want to hear and feel it.

 

[Vacceo]

There's loads on content below 20Hz in movies and music.
10Hz is the new 20Hz. Years ago manufacturers bragged about their subs going down to 20Hz and that was enough for most consumers, but not anymore.
Today 20Hz is sub standard ( pardon the pun ) because consumers are aware that there's content below that and they want to hear and feel it.

And that is an excellent aspiration.

 

[Sancus]

All centers are smaller than floor standing speakers and usually has at least one driver more than the stand mount version in the same series.
Both cases aren't ideal as L,C and R speakers should always be identical.
L,C,R, subs and room acoustics are most important in home theater and that's where most of the budget should go.
If your first priority is multichannel audio then also get identical surround speakers as L,C and R.

I don't understand what this post has to do with anything.

Most people do not have space for a floorstanding speaker as their center. If you are using a bookshelf sized center there is 0 point to having floorstanding L/R because the center plays 50% louder than the L/R in most multichannel content on average. So you are always bottlenecked by your center capability. Thus, bookshelves become a logical choice. And they also probably save you money because in most lineups the floorstanders are 2-3x as expensive. The price difference cannot be ignored and it becomes even more significant with high channel counts.

If you want identical surrounds, bookshelves become even more common sense. Floorstanders as surrounds often just do not fit in room layouts, since you cannot wall mount them nor can you usually fit them into tighter spaces. And there's that price difference again. The price/performance of bookshelves is often higher.

And yes, some bookshelves ARE just better than some floorstanders. I would put the Genelec 8361A up against any floorstander in its price range, no question. The D&D 8C also beats nearly all floorstanders on the planet and doesn't come in a floorstanding variant.

It really comes down to the specific use case, room layout, your needs/expectations, budget, and which brands you are considering. There's no one size fits all rule to any speaker choice.

 

[jhaider]

I know BagEnd was using a JBL 18" in their one sub which did not spec down low at all. It was a 80Hz Guitar speaker. It was all EQ and DSP to get down to 18hz. I owned a Sunfire sub that would shake all the windows in my house but I could not hear any extra bass just the windows.

That’s because there probably wasn’t much extra bass. Those little Sunfires boomed but did not go that low. But yes, rattle control does become more of an issue as the subs get more powerful.

 

[Recluse-Animator]

I don't understand what this post has to do with anything.

Most people do not have space for a floorstanding speaker as their center. If you are using a bookshelf sized center there is 0 point to having floorstanding L/R because the center plays 50% louder than the L/R in most multichannel content on average. So you are always bottlenecked by your center capability. Thus, bookshelves become a logical choice. And they also probably save you money because in most lineups the floorstanders are 2-3x as expensive. The price difference cannot be ignored and it becomes even more significant with high channel counts.

That's what I meant. "L,C and R should always be identical" be it floor standers or stand mount.
I never stated anything about price. Sure floor standers cost more, but if you got the budget and space it's a better option.

If you want identical surrounds, bookshelves become even more common sense. Floorstanders as surrounds often just do not fit in room layouts, since you cannot wall mount them nor can you usually fit them into tighter spaces. And there's that price difference again. The price/performance of bookshelves is often higher.

"L,C,R, subs and room acoustics are most important in home theater and that's where most of the budget should go.
If your first priority is multichannel audio then also get identical surround speakers as L,C and R."

I never stated you couldn't use stand mounts as surrounds. Surrounds in home theater don't have to be identical to L,C and R and very few people have.

And yes, some bookshelves ARE just better than some floorstanders. I would put the Genelec 8361A up against any floorstander in its price range, no question. The D&D 8C also beats nearly all floorstanders on the planet and doesn't come in a floorstanding variant.

It really comes down to the specific use case, room layout, your needs/expectations, budget, and which brands you are considering. There's no one size fits all rule to any speaker choice.

You missed the point. I meant from the same manufacturer and series and not product X from manufacturer Z against product Y from manufacturer U.
For example Kef Reference 5 is better than Kef Reference 1.
If Genelec made a floor standing version of the 8361A it would be better and the same goes with the D&D 8C.

 

[Andysu]

Dolby digital spec least when it changed current specs around when it was introduced ?
70mm some rumour it could go below 30Hz
CDS came about digital six channel according to specs 20Hz is lowest for all channels .
SR-D spec shows it can do 5Hz to 120Hz though the 120Hz cut off used to be bit higher for 70mm . SR-D handles 5Hz to 20,000KHz for all rest full range channels . so technical depending on some rare mixes that surface once in while with lows going below 20Hz down into the infersonic range where really need bass shakers .
it be very complex to have arrays of subs assigned with crossover cut off at 20Hz -24dB so say have x8 18" that will only handle range 5Hz to 20Hz .
next array of x8 subs handle the range 20Hz to 120Hz with cutoff at 20Hz to keep out any infersonic lows . it's theoretically doable , theoretically .