Sutherland KC Vibe MK2 Phono Stage Review

[solderdude]

I Use the same design with my custom Phone Pre. The A1 has a dual JFET PN4393 amp and the A2 has a very low noise/low distortion opamp. with a dual 15V PS i have very nice dynamic headroom

About 35 years ago I once made a hybrid pre-amp with passive < 1kHz filtering and active > 1kHz filtering with selectable load (capacitance + resistance) but do not play vinyl and is gathering dust on the attic.



Just found the schematic.

 

[sarumbear]

The Garrard Music Recovery Module was one such hardware box. As I recall, it used an analogue delay line and threshold detector to cut out the clicks. I've never heard one in operation, but they never particularly caught on.
S.

That is how I know that it can be done as I used to own one. It worked! BTW, Mr. Carver also had a unit under the SAE brand but it sounded horrible.

Garrard MRM 101 Music Recovery Module Manual | Vinyl Engine

www.vinylengine.com

Garrard MRM101 Service Information (Page 7 of 15) | ManualsLib

www.manualslib.com

https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Audio/Archive-Modern-Recording-IDX/IDX/70s/Modern-Recording-1978-04-OCR-Page-0069.pdf

Garrard "Music Recovery Module" MRM-101

 

[AudioSceptic]

Shure's figure of 70 were for the outliers, the main bulk of their measurements was clustered around 10-20cm/sec. That stacks up with what my PPM is indicating on most of my LPs. The PPM I use is a DIY design, using the display of a Velleman VU indicator with the rectifier and time constants changed to match the Type 1 PPM spec. This has a faster rise time than the Type 2 PPM in general use in the UK, and is the more commonly used one in Europe. It is still a quasi-peak indicator rather than true-peak, so will underindicate on very short peaks, especially at high frequencies.

I've set the output level of my phono stages to give 0dBu (0.775v) out at 5cm/sec recorded velocity at 1kHz, and my PPM goes to full scale at +15dBu, and only a few LPs ever get to that level, most peak at around +10dBu, so something around 15cm/sec. It does go to show, however, that unlike digital that has a fixed 0dBFS maximum, LPs can be cut at whatever level the cutting engineer decided was a good compromise between playing time, noise and distortion. I have a few compilation LPs, Sounds of the '60s, that sort of thing, that cram 30 minutes playing time onto one side, and the level is quite low, with the corresponding noise quite high, but it doesn't matter much considering the compressed nature of the music.

As there's no standard for maximum cutting levels, and given Shure's measurements, an absolute minimum of 20dB overload would be indicated as necessary, with 25dB preferable.

S.

Thanks. Yes, 20-25 dB seems to be a good standard. It so happens that the Pro-Ject manages 25 dB (95/5 mV).

The thing with CD, of course, is that there's no trade-off between playing time and maximum volume/dynamic range. You use the same 16 bits * 44.1 kHz * 2 regardless.

 

[AudioSceptic]

How about a knurled knob? I have three or four phono stages hanging around. None at a thousand dollars. And all but a Dyna uses a knurled knob for a grounding point. I think a couple of them even have a hole in the post for bare wire. Very easy to manipulate.

Sure, it's a little thing. But for a Grover Cleveland, I expect something a little more user friendly than a Phillips head screw direct into the chassis. That exudes cheapness. And I'm guessing they don't even throw in a screwdriver for that price!

Look at pics of the Pro-Ject. A nice little metal knurled knob, with a slot in case you want to tighten it further with a screwdriver. <https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/phono-box-s2-ultra/>

 

[sarumbear]

I have an SAE-5000 here...

Tell me, what do you wanna see?

This is the bypass, vs in-line, zero setting. Notice the infrasonic filter, but an awesome flat response in general.View attachment 234124

That’s the Carver one isn’t it with two sliders?

 

[aschen]

digital domain click remover:

SC-1 Mini/Phono

Due to extended component shortages - we expect this product to remain in limited production for the remainder of 2023. Limited production means we will offer inventory on a first come first serve basis ship to US customers only unless agreed to otherwise. The SC-1 Mini/Phono incorporates a...

sweetvinyl.com

 

[sarumbear]

digital domain click remover:

SC-1 Mini/Phono

Due to extended component shortages - we expect this product to remain in limited production for the remainder of 2023. Limited production means we will offer inventory on a first come first serve basis ship to US customers only unless agreed to otherwise. The SC-1 Mini/Phono incorporates a...

sweetvinyl.com

It looks like they were committed to vinyl amplification. However, none of their models are available to buy. I hope they will sort their supply issues.

They are a Silicon Valley startup.

SweetVinyl

SweetVinyl's SugarCube™ is a noise removal and recording/playback component for vinyl records

gust.com

It’s a shame that after 8 years they are basically not on the market, especially as they were aiming to sell the company 2 years ago. This market is difficult.

There is glowing review. Anyone can rate this review site?

The SugarCube has a place in any mid to high end system, and makes playing back much loved but well worn vinyl a real joy. It also has a place in archival, where its algorithm can compete with the very best automated click repair solutions and produce professional quality digital transfers. There really are no downsides aside perhaps from premature wear of the playback stylus. As such having a second cartridge or stylus on hand to play heavily damaged discs is probably advisable. The SugarCube enhances the listening experience with vinyl old and new, and for that it earns a thoroughly deserved recommendation. Vinyl has never sounded so sweet.

SweetVinyl SugarCube SC-1 Vinyl Click & Pop Remover Review - Audio Appraisal

The SugarCube enhances the listening experience with vinyl old and new, and for that it earns a thoroughly deserved recommendation.

www.audioappraisal.com

 

[aschen]

I think a tough market place. The venn diagram intersection of enthusiasts willing to spend a lot on LP reproduction and are not scared of dsp is a small sliver methinks.

 

[LTig]

Once you digitise you can analyse the waveform. Ticks have fast rise and fall times. In music almost always the fall times are slow due to reverberation, acoustic or artificial. It is perfectly possible to detect such fast decaying pulses (ticks) and limit their amplitude without using a general limiter. Such process will not affect the music and should be transparent.

There are various audio software that does that as an offline process but I have not heard any hardware that does it in real time. If I will be paying 3+ digits I demand this.

AFAIK the Parks Audio Puffin does this and many more useful things.

 

[sarumbear]

AFAIK the Parks Audio Puffin does this and many more useful things.

It is questionable how they can handle the ticks in the digital domain when the amplifier clips earlier, don’t you think?

 

[LTig]

It is questionable how they will can the ticks in the digital domain when the amplifier clips earlier, don’t you think?

AFAIK the PAP has a linear ampifier stage only before the ADC and its gain can be adjusted such that the ADC does not clip. RIAA is done by DSP.

 

[sarumbear]

AFAIK the PAP has a linear ampifier stage only before the ADC and its gain can be adjusted such that the ADC does not clip. RIAA is done by DSP.

Then this was due to the output clipping?

 

[sarumbear]

Packburn was the professional's choice. I am surprised to find they are still around. Stanton 500 on the home page!

Packburn Electronics

The Finest Noise Suppression Hardware Available

www.packburnelectronics.com

Different type of fish to a phono amplifier but it is very assuring to see that such a niche manufacturer survives 25 years in the audio industry.

 

[sarumbear]

About 35 years ago I once made a hybrid pre-amp with passive < 1kHz filtering and active > 1kHz filtering with selectable load (capacitance + resistance) but do not play vinyl and is gathering dust on the attic.

View attachment 234127

Just found the schematic.

View attachment 234132

Is it me or the MC output is flat? What was it used for?

 

[restorer-john]

About 35 years ago I once made a hybrid pre-amp with passive < 1kHz filtering and active > 1kHz filtering with selectable load (capacitance + resistance) but do not play vinyl and is gathering dust on the attic.

View attachment 234127

Just found the schematic.

View attachment 234132

Awesome you still have the schematic!

 

[restorer-john]

Is it me or the MC output is flat? What was it used for?

Loop into the MM stage.

Most MC stages are flat gain and sit up front of the MM stage. Just like a SUT.

 

[LTig]

Then this was due to the output clipping?

View attachment 234163

Repeat the test with 10 dB less gain and then we'll know.

 

[restorer-john]

Look at this gorgeous piece of (legacy) Sutherland preamplifier. Love the Nixies and the philosophy.

N1 | Sutherland Engineering

As we surge ahead, focused on the latest breakthrough, it is easy to lose sight of prior art. The N1 design reaches back to incorporate the latest technology of 1955. That would be the Nixie tube, the first numeric display. The design then moves forward to mine other historical treasures.

sutherlandengineering.com

Notice every IC is socketed. A few dollars for machine pin sockets and repairs are a breeze down the track.

 

[Frank Dernie]

No high pass filter to remove the spurious rubbish before the transducer reaches its operating frequency

Common but displays a lack of understanding of how pickup cartridges work.

 

[solderdude]

Is it me or the MC output is flat? What was it used for?

I already had 2 TT back in those days (Technics and Thorens) one with MM and 1 with MC.
Therefor I needed 2 inputs and one line out. (so 6 RCA) but only had a 4 or 8 RCA connector block at hand.
My (also own design) pre-amp only had 1MM input so I could also use the MC with that input should it ever be needed.
Loop through was not needed as it has a switch on the front.