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Sutherland KC Vibe MK2 Phono Stage Review

Rate this phono stage:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 17 13.5%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 49 38.9%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 49 38.9%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 11 8.7%

  • Total voters
    126

AudioSceptic

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Exactly this. Any phono stage needs at least 20dB of headroom at 1kHz. Shure measured commercially available LPs way back when, and found that some hot LPs were cut with velocities of up to 70cm/sec. This is 14x or 23dB above the nominal 5cm/sec recorded velocity, and that's modulation, not scratches which can go higher still. This means that a nominal 40dB gain phono stage with a cartridge of nominal 5mV @ 5cm/sec recorded velocity has to be able to output at least 5V on peaks, and ideally a good few dBs more, so I expect a phono stage to output around 8V (+20dBu) without clipping.

Yes, RIAA accuracy and low noise are important, but they're trivially easy to get right, overload margin seems to escape modern designers. My own phono stages, made in the mid 1980s, can output 9.5 V (+22dBu) before clipping.

S.
Am I getting this right? The Sutherland saturates at 26 mV input at 1 kHz, only 5x (14 dB above) the output voltage at reference velocity for a cartridge producing 5 mV at 5 cm/s. We need 23 dB for some LPs, so the Sutherland actually has -9 dB (negative) headroom. Note that this is just the phono stage input; we're not even looking at the output.
 

AudioSceptic

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The Hi-Fi article says 95mV for 43dB gain with a circuit fed with 18VDC. What is the point of the tested unit using 48VDC, the engineer in me asks, if 10dB or more headroom can be achieved while fed by 18VDC?
Reading it again, that would be for 40 dB of gain (9.5 V/95 mV = 100), wouldn't it?
 

formdissolve

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A question that I had never contemplated; even during the decades of building my very large library of LPs.
I think that most cartridges are inherently balanced pick-up.
Yet, even the higher-end phono pre-amp stages (as well as most turntables) do not appear to offer XLR/Balanced inputs and/or outputs!

Oh, Yes! My question is a simple "Why?"
Note: I gave up my LP library/hardware a decade ago, after realizing that my CD library had gotten double the size of the LP library. Finally, I gave up physical media altogether.
Some phono preamps offer balanced output, but usually only have SE input
 

sergeauckland

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Am I getting this right? The Sutherland saturates at 26 mV input at 1 kHz, only 5x (14 dB above) the output voltage at reference velocity for a cartridge producing 5 mV at 5 cm/s. We need 23 dB for some LPs, so the Sutherland actually has -9 dB (negative) headroom. Note that this is just the phono stage input; we're not even looking at the output.
As a phono stage has a fixed gain (when in use), there's no practical difference between input or output overload, operationally, the phono stage just overloads at a certain point. In this case, at 26mV, so inadequate for some, but not all LPs. I have a PPM on the output of my phono stages, and most of my LPs stay within 12dB or so of 5cm/sec, so this stage would just be OK for most MM cartridges. However, that's just for modulation, scratches and dirt causes clicks which can easily exceed the peak modulation, as so could overload the stage. That turns a click into a splat, much more audible.

If a cheaper stage like the ProJect, or CA can have much better overload characteristics, if phono stages 30 or 40 years ago could, why can't an expensive modern phono stage do too?

S
 

pseudoid

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That and also tone-arm and turntable manufacturers must make changes as well. That puts this in a chicken-and-egg situation.
Eh!
This, here, is a turntable "re-imagined": almost every single element of it.
202209_NagraRef2.jpg

The whole shebang costs $1,000/pound ... really, no reason to discuss MSRP but it has a 3-digit weight.
I am betting that it comes with RCAs. If at that price; it comes with an arm at all.
Chickens are smarter, maybe this is the egg!;)
 
OP
amirm

amirm

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We only measure audio equipments as we see fit. We don’t check them against specs. We compare one against other. Normally, devices are tested against spec.

That is the problem of the industry. There’s nothing any one person can do to change that.
Adding on, whenever I see measurements that raise an eyebrow, I seek out company specs. As you say, rarely do they provide such and this was the case here. They put more value on giving dimensions of the device than its electrical characteristics!
 

beagleman

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Interesting company. I never heard of them but I'd like to see reviews of the products higher up in their lineup. The Vibe MK2 is their entry level product. Their top of the line model is only $4000--which for this type of product is reasonable if it performs significantly better. The styling is a little simplistic but their products are made the USA so they need to cut costs somehow. I like the aesthetic of their higher end products.

If their "Insight" model toped the review chart, I wouldn't mind putting down $1400 to get that level of performance.

Uh yeah only FOUR THOUSAND.
You either have money to burn, or completely do not understand the costs of fairly simplistic phono preamps.....

Seriously I wondered where the "LOL" or "Smiley Face" was in your post......:facepalm:
 

beagleman

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Exactly this. Any phono stage needs at least 20dB of headroom at 1kHz. Shure measured commercially available LPs way back when, and found that some hot LPs were cut with velocities of up to 70cm/sec. This is 14x or 23dB above the nominal 5cm/sec recorded velocity, and that's modulation, not scratches which can go higher still. This means that a nominal 40dB gain phono stage with a cartridge of nominal 5mV @ 5cm/sec recorded velocity has to be able to output at least 5V on peaks, and ideally a good few dBs more, so I expect a phono stage to output around 8V (+20dBu) without clipping.

Yes, RIAA accuracy and low noise are important, but they're trivially easy to get right, overload margin seems to escape modern designers. My own phono stages, made in the mid 1980s, can output 9.5 V (+22dBu) before clipping.

S.


My first Phono Preamp I made from the late 80s, had somewhat less performance but cost about 20 times less.
Great performance though, can be had for FAR less than one thousand dollars.

I guess it kinds sucks to know how little the parts cost. :oops:
 

phoenixdogfan

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Probably would have needed to buy the full rack $2000+ version which was battery powered to get the good headroom. The Southerlands are nice pieces, and if you're already buying an audiophile turntable, high end arm, and an MC cartridge, an additional $1-2 for an accompanying phone stage is not an unreasonable expenditure. If you're into vinyl, that is. I, for one, no longer am.
 

Cars-N-Cans

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Input overload is vitally important for obvious reasons, but why should a RCA equipped stage be required to give 4V output? Most amps with RCA inputs seem to have plenty of gain, don't they?
If you really wanted to take advantage of phono stages that can have substantial swings with RCA outputs, the amp would have to have fairly low gain and be tolerant of having higher voltages at its input. The whole point of the "headroom" is so that nothing goes into saturation, which means impulses wont be as audible. 2Vrms is about 5.6Vp-p, which for an amplifier with a voltage gain of 20dB will equate to 56Vp-p, and that's with this one that doesn't have much headroom. More is certainly doable, but it is potentially abusing your speakers for a short period of time. (Edit: An argument can be made that these peaks should only have to be sustained for short periods of time, but then its something you have to spec in your amp as well, i.e. large, healthy ratio of peak to RMS power output.) And that assumes there wont be any mishaps with the tone arm or anything else that can generate sustained high-level inputs to the phono stage. I appreciate the idea of lots of headroom, but coming from the car audio world what that really means to me is you've got a choice to make when something goes wrong. Do your hands make a beeline for your ears to save your hearing? Or do you risk it and have them make a beeline for the controls instead? With audiophiles who have monoblocks that are north of a kW per channel its something that at least bears consideration. I'm not well versed in vinyl, but you think that this price range they would at least have some fancy noise-blanking or something to handle the impulsive noise, but audiophiles would likely say it makes it sound "sluggish" and "lacking attack", or something.
 
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solderdude

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The Hi-Fi article says 95mV for 43dB gain with a circuit fed with 18VDC. What is the point of the tested unit using 48VDC, the engineer in me asks, if 10dB or more headroom can be achieved while fed by 18VDC?

The used opamps are +/- 18V max.
The input voltage = 48V and this is +/-24V.
There is at least 6V available for regulation but maybe even more.

I agree and would appreciate it if someone could chime in. I've never dabbled into the vinyl realm so this sort of idea is relatively new to me.

The reason for the rather low dynamic headroom is the method used.
Passive RIAA correction, which some believe is the 'best sounding' method.
With active RIAA the gain varies with frequency. Passive ones have a huge gain (full BW).
This basically means the highs have the largest amplitude (that's why RIAA is needed) and thus these clip first.
Below the basics for this type of RIAA.
riaa.gif


When the overload character of the used opamps is 'nice' ticks that far exceed the max. input level are actually less audible (as they are limited in amplitude by the clipping) than when there would be a huge headroom.

The build costs of this amp are below $ 200.- when built in small quantities so that's quite a markup.
 

MCH

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When the overload character of the used opamps is 'nice' ticks that far exceed the max. input level are actually less audible (as they are limited in amplitude by the clipping) than when there would be a huge headroom.
This is what i was wondering about when people discuss headroom and the clicks becoming much more audible when clipping (note that i have no idea about these things, but somehow the case solderdude mentions also seemed logical). I would appreciate further discussion or explanation for noobs. Thanks.
 

charleski

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Nevertheless, there would still be some benefit to balanced inputs on phono stages, especially for MC cartridges, yet that's rarely provided, whilst high-level line inputs (which hardly need balancing in a domestic environment) are far more frequent. Go figure that one...marketing?
Sutherland’s $8k phono LOCO model actually does provide XLR inputs. Stereophile published rave reviews on the phono and little LOCO models last year, which will be up on their site. Obviously they need to charge to cover the cost of those pricey XLR connectors.

But doesn’t an RCA + independent ground connection provide many of the benefits of a proper balanced connection? Ideally the ground connection should be connected to the screen of the cable with a twisted pair for the RCA signals, rather than just being a flying wire, but that’s down to the user.
 

sergeauckland

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Sutherland’s $8k phono LOCO model actually does provide XLR inputs. Stereophile published rave reviews on the phono and little LOCO models last year, which will be up on their site. Obviously they need to charge to cover the cost of those pricey XLR connectors.

But doesn’t an RCA + independent ground connection provide many of the benefits of a proper balanced connection? Ideally the ground connection should be connected to the screen of the cable with a twisted pair for the RCA signals, rather than just being a flying wire, but that’s down to the user.
I don't see how that would be a benefit. It would still be an unbalanced connection even if it was differential. To get the benefit, it needs to both balanced and differential. A phono socket is unbalanced, even if the ground is floating.

S
 

restorer-john

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A phono socket is unbalanced, even if the ground is floating.

An insulated (phenolic mounted) RCA can output a balanced signal. Why you'd want to is another question, as the next component you connect to is likely to chassis earth the outer connections and defeat the purpose anyway.

Balanced is no fun with phono. The signal levels are so small, the impedances and gains so high that common mode cancellation of noise isn't worth the hassle of trying to get right, over such a short run to the phono stage. RCA works perfectly well.
 

restorer-john

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The used opamps are +/- 18V max.
The input voltage = 48V and this is +/-24V.
There is at least 6V available for regulation but maybe even more.



The reason for the rather low dynamic headroom is the method used.
Passive RIAA correction, which some believe is the 'best sounding' method.
With active RIAA the gain varies with frequency. Passive ones have a huge gain (full BW).
This basically means the highs have the largest amplitude (that's why RIAA is needed) and thus these clip first.
Below the basics for this type of RIAA.
riaa.gif


When the overload character of the used opamps is 'nice' ticks that far exceed the max. input level are actually less audible (as they are limited in amplitude by the clipping) than when there would be a huge headroom.

The build costs of this amp are below $ 200.- when built in small quantities so that's quite a markup.

The high voltages are not for obtaining increased overload capabilities. Phono front ends using parallelled MOSFETs or BJTs will operate at high voltages to run the devices in their most linear area.

Ticks and pops may or may not be better served with less of a swing in any case, depending on how the stage clips and recovers when overloaded. Having a massive swing available just means your clicks and pops are less distorted and have a greater amplitude- something that is not necessarily better. I have preamps with MM stage overloads of >320mV@1kHz and capable of 20V out (+/-32V rails). IOW, they are practically impossible to overload with a cartridge, but you'd better have a sensible person on the volume control.
 

DSJR

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I've now rated this box as poor - poor in value for money terms and poor for the disastrous headroom*.

*Heck, back in the late 60's and early 70's when I collected Hi Fi Sound mag every month (sadly had to be chucked out twenty five years or so back due to loft damage - I now realise I should have saved them), the overload of amplifier phono stages was always tested and back then, I remember a classic Leak solid state amp was criticised for having 30mV overload on 'Phono 1' where it was more satisfactory on 'Phono 2' (I can't remember the figures for that one I'm afraid. This back in the day where huge HF peaks at 15khz or so after a mid hf suckout in cartridges were common, along with copious rumble from the idler driven decks then often used. I think the classic Quad 33 preamp was similar with the 'Disc 2' option on their phono card being best (I've never used mine for vinyl).

Maybe their choice of op-amps isn't so hot for the task?
 

sergeauckland

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An insulated (phenolic mounted) RCA can output a balanced signal. Why you'd want to is another question, as the next component you connect to is likely to chassis earth the outer connections and defeat the purpose anyway.

Balanced is no fun with phono. The signal levels are so small, the impedances and gains so high that common mode cancellation of noise isn't worth the hassle of trying to get right, over such a short run to the phono stage. RCA works perfectly well.
To be pedantic, an insulated RCA can output a differential signal, it won't be balanced because the capacitances will be different between inner and outer. A minor point, but a balanced connector like the XLR has fairly close balance between the pins and ground. Your point about any downstream connector is likely to be grounded anyway is very valid!

As to the benefits, I don't see any with MMs, but can see some with MCs, as the cartridge is inherently balanced, and cable capacitance is of no real consequence, so cable lengths can be pretty much whatever one needs. Having said that, I accept that domestically it won't matter a lot, but as someone who runs microphone cables with similar voltages to cartridges, over 10s and 100s of metres, balancing gives me comfort.

S
 
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