Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[levimax]

The solution is to stay with the superior technology and fix the issues in production.

Another solution would be to have a system that can play back both digital sources and LP's. As mentioned here there is more to the experience of playing back LP's than just hearing their sound from a digital capture.

 

[MattHooper]

'If all else fails, move the goal posts.'
- Matt Hooper

And once again: no argument in support of your claim or actual reponse. Just assumption and dismissive comments. Nice.

 

[MattHooper]

Matt’s fake quote is right. You do move the goalposts a lot. Usually right after punching a straw man, being deliberately obscure, and stating facts unsupported by evidence.

Yep. Grows pretty tiresome. I occasionally respond in an attempt at real dialogue, only to learn again it seems fruitless, which is too bad.

 

[RichB]

Another solution would be to have a system that can play back both digital sources and LP's. As mentioned here there is more to the experience of playing back LP's than just hearing their sound from a digital capture.

Exactly, I prefer selecting vast selection of music played back from my iPad. Even automated "radio stations" are nice for finding new music.

There is nothing about the LP experience (finding the album, pops and clicks, bad landings, lack of deep bass, etc.) that I miss.

- Rich

 

[JP]

And once again: no argument in support of your claim or actual reponse. Just assumption and dismissive comments. Nice.

I’m only responding in the context of what my comment was about. Your entire post is irrelevant.

 

[MattHooper]

It's a good article, and there's a telling quote right at the top:
“That was the problem,” she says. “Using music, rather than having it be its own experience … What kind of music am I going to use to set a mood for the day? What am I going to use to enjoy my walk? I started not really liking what that meant.”
But I think it really addresses the whole playlist culture that Spotify latched on to. I had a little chuckle at the part where one guy enthuses over his ability to store music as albums on a hard drive and serve them from a NAS ... what a novel idea! At the end of the day, though, this feels very similar to the old days where kids would discover that listening to the radio wasn't the only way to hear music, and they could go out and buy an album instead.

Yes the experiences in that article have been echoed many, many times by people getting in to vinyl.

I think it's always important to keep in mind though: Some enthusiasts will try to leverage these ideas as some Great Explanation for "why X is better than Y."
It's like those early (and sometimes still persisting) claims vinyl proselytizers would make about CD. A person may have, for whatever reason, disliked the sound of CDs but that's not good enough. His dislike has to become some Great Explanation like "The explanation for why WE don't like digital music is that it is somehow unnatural sounding, probably because it's chopped up information, unlike analog." No..."we" didn't find digital music unnatural. YOU did. Most people got along with digital music very happily! These sort of blinkered attempts to dismiss digital music always annoyed me (as someone who has long enjoyed CDs).

Similarly, when it comes to streaming "devaluing" music, or making it harder to concentrate or appreciate the music, this isn't everyone. It's the individuals in question. Vinyl isn't some sort of solution for a universal problem. SOME people (like me, *sometimes*) can find streaming music makes music wall-paper. But that doesn't mean everyone else feels that way. For instance plenty of ASR members say they have no problem at all fully appreciating music streaming from their servers.

The explanations are always going to be varied.

 

[atmasphere]

There is nothing about the LP experience (finding the album, pops and clicks, bad landings, lack of deep bass, etc.) that I miss.

- Rich

FWIW, ticks and pops are often the result of the phono section overloading at high frequencies due poor high frequency overload margins and an electrical resonance set into excitation by the action of the cartridge. The inductance of the cartridge and the tonearm cable capacitance are the source of the resonance. FWIW I designed and manufactured the first fully differential balanced phono section ever made so this isn't coming from some sort of anecdote.

If you experienced a lack of bass in most cases that's a playback issue not associated with the media itself. I've yet to encounter a CD that has better bass than the same title on LP; not saying that couldn't happen. I play a lot of electronia which tends to have some very deep bass. Setup IMO is an enormous impediment to hearing what LPs actually can do! Digital is just about plug and play so opens the door for really good sound for a lot of people if they don't buy junk.

I'm not arguing your preferences either just so we're clear. Just thought I'd clear this one up as they are common playback problems.

 

[RichB]

FWIW, ticks and pops are often the result of the phono section overloading at high frequencies due poor high frequency overload margins and an electrical resonance set into excitation by the action of the cartridge. The inductance of the cartridge and the tonearm cable capacitance are the source of the resonance. FWIW I designed and manufactured the first fully differential balanced phono section ever made so this isn't coming from some sort of anecdote.

If you experienced a lack of bass in most cases that's a playback issue not associated with the media itself. I've yet to encounter a CD that has better bass than the same title on LP; not saying that couldn't happen. I play a lot of electronia which tends to have some very deep bass. Setup IMO is an enormous impediment to hearing what LPs actually can do! Digital is just about plug and play so opens the door for really good sound for a lot of people if they don't buy junk.

I'm not arguing your preferences either just so we're clear. Just thought I'd clear this one up as they are common playback problems.

Clicks and pops are issues for those of us that do not listen in clean rooms
Here is decent article on the technical differences between vinyl and digital recordings.

Does vinyl sound better than streaming?

It's an old audiophile argument: is vinyl the only way to achieve auditory enlightenment, or digital music more than good enough?

www.soundguys.com

John Iverson discusses vinyl here which is reasonable IME:

- Rich

 

[krabapple]

Same here, only it's CDs.

Like, what's up with that?

What's up with playing physical CDs?

Rip 'em instead.

 

[Robin L]

What's up with playing physical CDs?

Rip 'em instead.

Yeah, but my storage is maxed out, so the additional rips will have to wait.

 

[Newman]

I've yet to encounter a CD that has better bass than the same title on LP; not saying that couldn't happen.

Right. So the CD bass is an undistorted replication of the original studio production, but the LP bass is better every single time?

Where do I send the tin foil hat?

At least we now know one thing:-

FWIW I designed and manufactured the first fully differential balanced phono section ever made so this isn't coming from some sort of anecdote.

…outing yourself as a vinyl gear designer tells us all we need to know about your biases and the credibility of your opinions digital vs vinyl. Thanks. Appreciated.

 

[atmasphere]

Right. So the CD bass is an undistorted replication of the original studio production, but the LP bass is better every single time?

I didn't say that; pretty obvious strawman. Logical fallacies are inherently false FWIW.

FWIW I also outed myself as a mastering engineer. Not so much bias as it is direct experience, which to me holds more cred than made-up stories. However no-where on this thread have I touted the LP as superior. I've merely debunked myths when brought up as if they are real. A lot of people take their personal experience and conflate that with the media. Any time you do that the result is less than stellar.

 

[RichB]

The op asked "Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?".
As such, those with existing LP libraries are steady state, so they do not account for the renaissance.

Summarizing, here is my take:

- An alternative the atrocious mastering found on some masters from excessive compression and digital clipping
- Gear heads because some of massive these turntables cool
- Status enhancement
- Personal preference for euphonic and familiar mastering and associated technical limitations

LPs are technically inferior and some supporters have selection bias.
This cannot be selected for by DBT, because anyone with decent hearing could pick the LP version.

It might be fun to take a well recorded dynamic digital recording and apply a and "LP filter" designed to mimic LP mastering and playback.
Tunable parameters include: summing bass, limiting dynamic range, high frequency roll off, wow and flutter, and pops and clicks.

- Rich

 

[Frgirard]

The op asked "Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?".
As such, those with existing LP libraries are steady state, so they do not account for the renaissance.

Summarizing, here is my take:

- An alternative the atrocious mastering found on some masters from excessive compression and digital clipping
- Gear heads because some of massive these turntables cool
- Status enhancement
- Personal preference for euphonic and familiar mastering and associated technical limitations

LPs are technically inferior and some supporters have selection bias.
This cannot be selected for by DBT, because anyone with decent hearing could pick the LP version.

It might be fun to take a well recorded dynamic digital recording and apply a and "LP filter" designed to mimic LP mastering and playback.
Tunable parameters include: summing bass, limiting dynamic range, high frequency roll off, wow and flutter, and pops and clicks.

- Rich

a massive attack?

 

[krabapple]

If you experienced a lack of bass in most cases that's a playback issue not associated with the media itself. I've yet to encounter a CD that has better bass than the same title on LP; not saying that couldn't happen.

Wow. Across ~40 years of digital releases since CDs appeared. Wow.

I play a lot of electronica which tends to have some very deep bass.

For a recording that has substantial 'very deep' bass there is no way an LP is going to have a 'better' rendition of that than a straight digital version of it, by any objective measure.

Surely you know that much of LP 'mastering' has traditionally been about taming deep, loud bass so that tone arms don't leap off the record. That isn't a concern with a CD, which offers 'flat down to 0 Hz'.

 

[RichB]

a massive attack?

Certainly not, this is Massive Attack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_Attack.
They are even available on viny for $34.98: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Massive-...p.ds&msclkid=312eefc6aee91be59e268cf373ff30fd

This is bass heavy context, so something more than your bank account may suffer.

I am applying logic the question posted by the OP.
There are LPs where the digital file is not available, so folks have a turntable.
There are digital recordings for which there is no LP, therefore, why not simulate the sound...

- Rich

 

[atmasphere]

Wow. Across ~40 years of digital releases since CDs appeared. Wow.




For a recording that has substantial 'very deep' bass there is no way an LP is going to have a 'better' rendition of that than a straight digital version of it, by any objective measure.

Surely you know that much of LP 'mastering' has traditionally been about taming deep, loud bass so that tone arms don't leap off the record. That isn't a concern with a CD, which offers 'flat down to 0 Hz'.

Noting again the presence of a strawman logical fallacy- I never said the LP bass was better. Again, its important to not confuse personal experience with that of the media, even if it spans 40 years. I did say the bass could be just as good; same bandwidth expressed in the recording (it does no good to go to 1Hz if nothing is there) and same amplitude without compression. This is easily measured!

(emphasis added) This is an example of a bit of mythology that is based on something real.

The issue is out-ofphase bass, which can cause the stylus to get knocked out of the groove. This doesn't occur with in-phase bass (and that's the bit you've conflated with the former). It also does not mean that the bass has to be equalized (which sounds like another myth you may be entertaining). To solve out of phase bass if the project is on a budget, a passive processing device is used that causes the bass to be mono (typically below 80Hz so you don't run into problems in a normal room since at this frequency bass is entirely reverberant). That state of 'mono' might exist for a few milliseconds only. The passive processor simply senses the out of phase bass and turns on an electronic switch. Problem solved.

But if the budget isn't so limited on the project I found that if you spend a little more time engineering it you can find a way around the out of phase bass without using processing. For example you could cut the overall signal level by 1dB. This has the effect of dramatically reducing the groove modulation since 3dB represents a doubling of the groove modulation. Between that and possibly increasing the groove depth you can usually fix this sort of thing (which is usually the result of inattention when the recording was made, which would have been a multi-track recording).

 

[RichB]

Noting again the presence of a strawman logical fallacy- I never said the LP bass was better. Again, its important to not confuse personal experience with that of the media, even if it spans 40 years. I did say the bass could be just as good; same bandwidth expressed in the recording (it does no good to go to 1Hz if nothing is there) and same amplitude without compression. This is easily measured!

(emphasis added) This is an example of a bit of mythology that is based on something real.

The issue is out-ofphase bass, which can cause the stylus to get knocked out of the groove. This doesn't occur with in-phase bass (and that's the bit you've conflated with the former). It also does not mean that the bass has to be equalized (which sounds like another myth you may be entertaining). To solve out of phase bass if the project is on a budget, a passive processing device is used that causes the bass to be mono (typically below 80Hz so you don't run into problems in a normal room since at this frequency bass is entirely reverberant). That state of 'mono' might exist for a few milliseconds only. The passive processor simply senses the out of phase bass and turns on an electronic switch. Problem solved.

But if the budget isn't so limited on the project I found that if you spend a little more time engineering it you can find a way around the out of phase bass without using processing. For example you could cut the overall signal level by 1dB. This has the effect of dramatically reducing the groove modulation since 3dB represents a doubling of the groove modulation. Between that and possibly increasing the groove depth you can usually fix this sort of thing (which is usually the result of inattention when the recording was made, which would have been a multi-track recording).

When speakers play in a typical room, there is always out-of-phase bass that creates room modes.
This can be addressed with room treatments, multiple subs, and DSP processing.

- Rich

 

[Digital1955]

It might be fun to take a well recorded dynamic digital recording and apply a and "LP filter" designed to mimic LP mastering and playback.
Tunable parameters include: summing bass, limiting dynamic range, high frequency roll off, wow and flutter, and pops and clicks.

 

[atmasphere]

When speakers play in a typical room, there is always out-of-phase bass that creates room modes.
This can be addressed with room treatments, multiple subs, and DSP processing.

- Rich

Standing waves are what you are talking about. Pesky things, but multiple subs (Distributed Bass Array) does it nicely! All the ones I've seen are active below 80Hz; above that the sub could attract attention to itself. So you can see that an out of phase bass processor would be completely inaudible for the same reason.