Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[Doodski]

Another fun fact... there are approximately 45 gigawatts of coal generation plants under construction at this time. That's about 2.1 million pounds of CO2 they will eventually collectively produce per hour of operation, which will be by definition 24x7x365. A mitigation technology that would reduce that total by more than half looks like a great deal. Not to mention that coal burning pollutes in a lot of other ways too. We can't do much about other countries, but in North America we should be encouraging the displacement of coal with NG, not fighting against it. Of course, even if we decommission every coal plant in North America, that's less than the new capacity being built worldwide. We'd just break even.

2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of-the-worlds-new-coal-power-plants

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/power_plants_2017_industrial_profile_updated_2020.pdf

In Alberta we have coal up the ying yang but all the coal fired electricity generating plants have been converted to natural gas. Our monthly rates have increased accordingly and with the carbon taxes that increased them even further so I read that some peeps are seeing a 60% increase.

 

[blueone]

In Alberta we have coal up the ying yang but all the coal fired electricity generating plants have been converted to natural gas.

That's excellent. In the US we're not as smart, and several states could be subject to rolling blackouts in the near future.

 

[Doodski]

That's excellent. In the US we're not as smart, and several states could be subject to rolling blackouts in the near future.

If the electricity goes out in the winter here there's going to be a very messy situation and people are going to die. The most northerly major city in the western hemisphere gets pretty freakishly cold. Like -30C is normal, -35C is expected at night and sometimes it gets colder for awhile. At that temperature people die in a ~half hour or so without shelter and heat/proper clothing. From what I've seen it's very reliable as I have seen the power go out ~4 times in 8 years. Heating here is by natural gas and so that relies on forced air furnace electrical motors that uses lotsa power. So we can actually peak in the winter where in the South USA and hot regions they have peak power use in the summer. Of course the bi-directional electricity grid is shared between the USA and Canada I think across like 4 points across the border so when we need more we get it from the USA and vice versa. I have a selection of comfy warm down clothing for such occasions... lol

 

[Timcognito]

and several states could be subject to rolling blackouts in the near future.

Yes, and don't forget hurricanes, fires, droughts, and floods.

 

[Marc v E]

In Hornsdale Australia a battery pack was deployed in 2017. In 2019 the entire cost of the project was recovered by cost savings (due to less use of peaker plants) and revenue (due to autobidder software: basically buying when it's cheap and selling when prices are high on the grid market). I think this is incredible and obviously the way forward.

Tesla 'Big Battery' shows record 270 MW range after expansion

Tesla’s giant Powerpack battery system in South Australia, better known as the Tesla Big Battery, has just been expanded and...

electrek.co

Hornsdale Power Reserve - South Australia's Big Battery

The Hornsdale Power Reserve is the world’s first big battery. The first 100 MW saved SA consumers $150 million over two years. It was expanded by 50 MW in 2020.

hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au

Battery megapack projects can have an ROI of 2 years like in this example from Australia.

Based on that I don't think we need new tech. We just need to look at the data and make choices based on that.

 

[blueone]

Yes, and don't forget hurricanes, fires, droughts, and floods.

As I've pointed out before, if you eliminated all of the GHG emissions from the US immediately - that's right, everything - it would only reduce global CO2 emissions by about 12-14%, depending on whose numbers you like best. Converting coal plants to NG is a win, end of story. Shutting down the entire country while the rest of the world continues to emit GHG will not affect increasing numbers of hurricanes, fires, droughts, and floods. The math is definitive. Why do you persist?

 

[blueone]

Battery megapack projects can have an ROI of 2 years like in this example from Australia.

Based on that I don't think we need new tech. We just need to look at the data and make choices based on that.

$US75M (?) is a ridiculous cost to store only 30MW of power for three hours of consumption. If that's the new tech, it sucks, isn't practical for large grids, and is for promotional purposes only.

 

[Timcognito]

Did I disagree with NG over coal? Short term a step in the right direction. But coal should be eliminated ASAP, yesterday.

Why do you persist?

Because the solutions go far beyond short term and cost to mitigate climate disasters far exceeds the cost to implement energy efficiency and clean production. The energy companies are the one resisting change. Most every car company is on the zero emissions band wagon. Existing technologies such as rooftop solar and backup batteries are being fought in many states and embraced in others. The thing holding us back is in large part is existing monopolies. It is the same folks that are fighting the change you are advocating.

 

[Chromatischism]

In Alberta we have coal up the ying yang but all the coal fired electricity generating plants have been converted to natural gas. Our monthly rates have increased accordingly and with the carbon taxes that increased them even further so I read that some peeps are seeing a 60% increase.

Wouldn't you be saving carbon tax money on natural gas as compared to coal, to the tune of 50%? If that earlier posted numbers are correct.

 

[pseudoid]

...Used to believe that but the recent experience in Ukraine is changing my mind. The "space race" should be on efficiency like what LED lighting did to incandescence, 85% reduction in power consumption. Heat pump tech is making huge leaps in efficiency compared to previous generations. *The lifestyle changes have to do with eliminating wasteful consumption and fossil fuel usage.

You see? LEDs was one technology that did not need government intervention to do that oft-used 'paradigm shift' thingy on its own merits.
Could you please make me a believer about what "lifestyle changes...eliminating wasteful consumption" has a direct relationship to "fossil fuel usage" but vis-a-vis in comparison to "electric vehicles' need for other energy sources"?
How is "fossil fuels" any worse than any other extraction of raw material for 8 billion humans who have needs for energy, but only when each is NOT driven by possible financial gains or fads?
Unless you are a firm believer in throwing the baby out with the bathwater or trying to tell me that there is no way to extract energy from 'fossil' fuels in environmentally safe methods.
I believe a proven and established technology as 'fossil fuel energy extraction' can be made safeR and cheapER, without abandonment of it - just to venture forth to the future with reckless abandon about a (currently, unsustainable) tech that is guaranteed to cause mayhem if not for the environment but also for territorial confrontations around the world.
...as if OPEC does not do that already but managed.
Ask google how much of the metals needed for EVs are 'extracted' using coal and smile.
Would you then ask google, how much money the western world is throwing at a problem and/or how much is being funneled to China for those materials?

 

[Doodski]

Wouldn't you be saving carbon tax money on natural gas as compared to coal, to the tune of 50%? If that earlier posted numbers are correct.

I have no idea how it works with the taxation before and after the fuel switch. It's a good question. It could be that as time progressed the carbon taxes increased per ton and they have eventually become too much and now people are piping up about it.(?)

 

[Timcognito]

You see? LEDs was one technology that did not need government intervention to do that oft-used 'paradigm shift' thingy on its own merits.
Could you please make me a believer about what "lifestyle changes...eliminating wasteful consumption" has a direct relationship to "fossil fuel usage" but vis-a-vis in comparison to "electric vehicles' need for other energy sources"?
How is "fossil fuels" any worse than any other extraction of raw material for 8 billion humans who have needs for energy, but only when each is NOT driven by possible financial gains or fads?
Unless you are a firm believer in throwing the baby out with the bathwater or trying to tell me that there is no way to extract energy from 'fossil' fuels in environmentally safe methods.
I believe a proven and established technology as 'fossil fuel energy extraction' can be made safeR and cheapER, without abandonment of it - just to venture forth to the future with reckless abandon about a (currently, unsustainable) tech that is guaranteed to cause mayhem if not for the environment but also for territorial confrontations around the world.
...as if OPEC does not do that already but managed.
Ask google how much of the metals needed for EVs are 'extracted' using coal and smile.

If you burn it creates CO2 that is the problem. The real problem is how fast the population of people, pets and livestock grew over the last century. The planet will have to change if it continues. Evolution is not goal directed and things will change whether one believes the consequences are good or bad.

 

[Chromatischism]

just to venture forth to the future with reckless abandon about a (currently, unsustainable) tech that is guaranteed to cause mayhem if not for the environment but also for territorial confrontations around the world.

Oil?

 

[pseudoid]

Oil?

Lithium? Cobalt? Nickel? To go boldly or to boldy go? lol...

I still have not figured out if this thing is a clever way of creating a pyramid scheme or a get rich scheme.

The concept of "Carbon Credits" came into existence as a result of increasing awareness of the need for controlling emissions. The IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) has observed that:
"Policies that provide a real or implicit price of carbon could create incentives for producers and consumers to significantly invest in low-GHG products, technologies and processes. Such policies could include economic instruments, government funding and regulation,"
While noting that a tradable permit system is one of the policy instruments that has been shown to be environmentally effective in the industrial sector, as long as there are reasonable levels of predictability over the initial allocation mechanism and long-term price. This mechanism was formalize dby the Kyoto Protocol. In 'greenhouse gases' (GHGs) math: One carbon credit is equal to one ton of carbon dioxide, or in some markets, carbon dioxide equivalent gases…[ so sez wikipedia]

Most interesting is "SOME COMPANY " made $679 million carbon-credit sales. It’s more than double the prior quarter’s sales of $314 million and is even much higher than its Q1 2021 sales ($518 million). Its Q2 2021 and Q3 2021 credit sales are $354 million and $279 million, respectively.

 

[blueone]

Did I disagree with NG over coal? Short term a step in the right direction. But coal should be eliminated ASAP, yesterday.

Good. There's hope for the US.

Because the solutions go far beyond short term and cost to mitigate climate disasters far exceeds the cost to implement energy efficiency and clean production. The energy companies are the one resisting change. Most every car company is on the zero emissions band wagon. Existing technologies such as rooftop solar and backup batteries are being fought in many states and embraced in others. The thing holding us back is in large part is existing monopolies. It is the same folks that are fighting the change you are advocating.

The energy companies are not resisting change. They are reducing investment in fossil fuel production and oil refining, much to the chagrin of many in the current administration. That's one of the reasons the price of gasoline is going up. Would you invest in fossil fuel production if a state like California is eliminating the markets for fossil fuel vehicles and residential systems? They are investing in renewables that are investible:

Renewable power partnerships and energy storage investments

www.chevron.com

Why we're investing $15 billion in a lower-carbon future | ExxonMobil

At ExxonMobil, we develop and deploy solutions that meet society’s needs. Today, that means taking a leading role in providing the products that enable modern life, reducing carbon emissions and developing needed technologies to advance a lower-carbon emissions future.

corporate.exxonmobil.com

Just to name two companies. They all have similar strategies.

Glad I don't live in California anymore. You folks are about to understand what happens when private companies start to disinvest due to government policies:

California Number and Capacity of Petroleum Refineries

www.eia.gov

The number of refineries in CA, producing that special elixir CA specifies, is dropping by the year. One of our kids lives in San Diego, where 87 octane stuff is still $5/gal, and rising.

I think EVs are great for a lot of purposes, but screwing around with fuel supplies, the electrical grid, and overly ambitious energy transitions simultaneously are a recipe for expensive shortages, big-time inconvenience, and potentially eroding confidence in government officials to govern with the interests of the general population in mind.

 

[Timcognito]

Stopping or containing combustion is the only means feasible to eliminate CO2 emissions as we already have a detrimental amount. The energy companies have cash to reinvest in their future and could be the vanguard of new technology. So do the Chinese for that matter. The starving drought ridden east Africans do not. The city of Miami can probably afford a seawall but Micronesia probably not. We need a "space race" approach to this problem and that will create millions of new jobs and skills for the next generation. The horse is already out of the barn if one looks at the climate change disasters we have ready faced. There is no denying that there are short term gains in managing existing technologies and that it won't be over night. Companies like Ford and Tesla see the value in a renewable energy future and companies like PG&E are loosing tens of billions for the fires they have caused by not updating and maintaining their infrastructure in the face of warming climate.

Glad I don't live in California anymore. You folks are about to understand what happens when private companies start to disinvest due to government policies:

Yeah then maybe we will freeze to death or have bank accounts seized by the unregulated energy companies like in Texas when they could not deliver power. All that California hate and over regulation sure is having a negative affect on the 7th largest economy in the world.

 

[blueone]

Stopping or containing combustion is the only means feasible to eliminate CO2 emissions as we already have a detrimental amount. The energy companies have cash to reinvest in their future and could be the vanguard of new technology.

I gave you examples showing that they already are. Just keep in mind that corporate executives have a legal fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. The primary responsibility of a public company in the US is profitability. I agree with that objective. What you seem to be proposing are social justice objectives. As a shareholder in public companies I'd be against that.

So do the Chinese for that matter.

We have no influence over China. We could stop buying their stuff, but that seems unlikely, however much rhetoric there is right now about avoiding Chinese technologies and products.

The starving drought ridden east Africans do not. The city of Miami can probably afford a seawall but Micronesia probably not. We need a "space race" approach to this problem and that will create millions of new jobs and skills for the next generation.

Actually, I previously presented scientific evidence that Greenland's ice sheet is melting and we can't stop it. The ocean levels will rise to problematic levels. The only alternative is mitigation. From post #1867:

Glaciologists cut through melt uncertainty of Greenland Ice Sheet

Based on two decades worth of measurements instead of models, glaciologists have for the first time determined the minimum ice loss committed from the Greenland Ice Sheet as from the climate warming so-far. This leaves out the uncertainty of any positive or negative future climate scenario...

eng.geus.dk

Companies like Ford and Tesla see the value in a renewable energy future and companies like PG&E are loosing tens of billions for the fires they have caused by not updating and maintaining their infrastructure in the face of warming climate. Yeah then maybe we will freeze to death or have bank accounts seized by the unregulated energy companies like in Texas when they could not deliver power. All that California hate and over regulation sure is having a negative affect on the 7th largest economy in the world.

PG&E is a special case, and one of the few companies that got a major studio movie done about their, uh, less than responsible antics.

Actually, California, if a country, would be the 5th largest in the world. My dislike for California was earned over time. When I moved there in 1988 it was my dream place to live. I've lived in four CA cities. IMO, the state has lost its way, but that's just my opinion, though you are entitled to it.

 

[Timcognito]

What you seem to be proposing are social justice objectives.

No, I think if you are about loose your cash cow (your attachments above) and you have cash and expertise in the energy field it makes sense to beat others to the punch. A gas station could be a hydrogen station for example, or turn CO2 into another useful compound. Make lemonade from lemons.
Profit is important but at what expense? Would one look at those who made opioids in the same way? They have duty a to their shareholders and customers.

PG&E is a special case, and one of the few companies that get a major studio movie done about their, uh, less than responsible antics.

And the Texas companies and regulations that froze and stole money from the freezing customers

IMO, the state has lost its way, but that's just my opinion, though you are entitled to it.

Thanks that's generous.

 

[pseudoid]

Actually, I previously presented scientific evidence that Greenland's ice sheet is melting and we can't stop it. The ocean levels will rise to problematic levels. The only alternative is mitigation. From post #1867:

Timbeeeeeer!
I'll pretend to be the devil's advocate, with some fresher data from the prince(?) of climate-deniers: The WallStreetJournal.
(Both are the headlines of the WSJ articles and maybe found w/o subscription)
"Greenland’s Melting Ice Is No Cause for Climate-Change Panic" (2022/02/17)
"Don’t Believe the Hype About Antarctica’s Melting Glaciers" (2022/09/17)

 

[blueone]

And the Texas companies and regulations that froze and stole money from the freezing customers

I'm confused. Which problem are you talking about? The customers who knowingly signed up for power based on wholesale spot pricing? Or companies like Griddy Energy who found themselves in a position where they couldn't collect the outrageous bills sent during the freeze event of 2021 and had to declare bankruptcy? Or perhaps that various generation facilities in multiple states were not properly insulated and had to shutdown, including wind turbines? Or perhaps that gas well equipment froze, and that limited the supply of natural gas for generation plants, driving up the spot market prices? I'm not aware of utility companies stealing, only being unprepared and stupid.

I sum it up as the entire energy industry in the southwest having a poor winter weather strategy, and getting caught in a bind that screwed pretty much everyone. My gas bills still include a surcharge to help cover the costs incurred by our local gas utility. And some of them in Texas could pass that on to opportunistic customers who thought spot pricing wouldn't hurt them much.

Thanks that's generous.

You're welcome.