Best way to add a center channel

[curiouspeter]

What is the recommended way to add a center channel to an existing 2.0 system connected to a TV through HDMI ARC?

My amp has HT passthrough. However, it seems excessive to get a 7.1 AVR with pre-out (it probably won't fit into my cabinet) just to add one channel.

Is there something like an active center speaker that:

1. takes HDMI ARC input
2. decodes surround formats
3. extracts center channel and plays it
4. output L and R through RCA

One would think many people with a 2-channel system will want to add a center speaker for better TV dialogs.

Alternatively, who makes the smallest Class D, 3.1/5.1 AVR with pre-outs? I have space for half-width, 2U or maybe 3U at most.

 

[-Matt-]

I was browsing ebay and came across this...
Marantz SP-50

(I make no recommendation for this specific item or model - there are likely many similar devices).

It appears to be an ancient surround processor that pre-dates HDMI. As a result it has analogue inputs for LR and outputs for centre. This probably isn't the best way, but I wonder if this could still work for your use case?

I.e. Connect the stereo pre-outs of your integrated to the LR inputs of the SP-50 then the centre output of the SP-50 to a monoblock power amp.

Edit: Has the mathematics of upmixing stereo to a centre channel actually changed since the ProLogic days? This probably wouldn't decode true discrete centre channel data from anything newer than Dolby Surround.

 

[Holmz]

…
One would think many people with a 2-channel system will want to add a center speaker for better TV dialogs.
...

True, one would think that.
But I am not sure it is true… for it to be of use (IME) it has to have a wide horizontal radiation pattern, AND the listeners need to to be spread out from each other spatially.
If it is 2 people on a sofa, then my experience is that good two channel speakers are way better than a three channel, unless that third channel is very good.

I would suggest a 4.x.0 would be a better upgrade than going to 3.x.0 , and a 4.x.2 is a better option than a 5.x.0
And a 2.1.0 or 2.2.0 is better than a 3.0.0

@curiouspeter
Do you have a good center image wth your 2 channels?

 

[-Matt-]

This one seems a little more modern, with digital coaxial and optical SPDIF inputs, balanced outputs and all in a smaller box...
Extron SSP7.1

Does your TV have an optical output?


(For what its worth, I find that the centre channel does help immensely. But, if anything, my centre has a flatter frequency response than my L&R speakers. Not sure what its horizontal radiation pattern is like but should be better than many, as its woofer and tweeter are arranged vertically).

 

[Chrispy]

Smallest avrs I can think of are the Marantz slimlines (1711 I think is the current one); it's a 7.1 model but they do have L/R preouts as well as sub but not a particularly powerful amp section. Denon has a 5.1 still, the 560/570 I think are the latest....but taller IIRC and only a sub pre-out.

 

[-Matt-]

There is also the possibility of these ARC/eARC extractor type things (perhaps nearer to what you had in mind)?
HDMI 7.1 Audio Extractor

You'd need to check that your TV can convert to the correct format (LPCM 5.1 or 7.1) and can output this over ARC. This box can't decode bitstream formats such as Dolby Digital or Atmos. (Be careful as I know for example that LG dropped the DTS decoding capability from at least some of its TVs).

Amir reviewed a similar device here...
Monoprice Blackbird Audio Extractor Review
... but unfortunately the analogue outputs didn't perform very well. (The one linked above is likely no better but hasn't been tested as far as I'm aware).


Edit: I must admit, however, that a slimline AVR (or perhaps a fullsized one that also replaces your integrated amp) is likely going to give many more features and more trouble-free use in the long run than any of my suggestions above.

 

[curiouspeter]

True, one would think that.
But I am not sure it is true… for it to be of use (IME) it has to have a wide horizontal radiation pattern, AND the listeners need to to be spread out from each other spatially.
If it is 2 people on a sofa, then my experience is that good two channel speakers are way better than a three channel, unless that third channel is very good.

I would suggest a 4.x.0 would be a better upgrade than going to 3.x.0 , and a 4.x.2 is a better option than a 5.x.0
And a 2.1.0 or 2.2.0 is better than a 3.0.0

@curiouspeter
Do you have a good center image wth your 2 channels?

The center image is quite good, especially after room correction. However, the 2.0 mix from the TV is less than ideal. Dialogues are usually clear, but occasionally deeper male voices are slightly muddled. I am using EQ to cut out much of the bass and this is clearing dialogues a lot too. But then there is no bass.

Hmm, perhaps I should add a sub? I do not find the bass lacking currently. But then I will not know what I am missing.

We have downstairs neighbors but our floor is concrete. Is there a good way to add a sub (e.g. KEF KC62) politely? Will a foam mat or GAIA feet help?

 

[curiouspeter]

I would suggest a 4.x.0 would be a better upgrade than going to 3.x.0 , and a 4.x.2 is a better option than a 5.x.0

I have 4.0 in my other setup with two Sonos Amps. Sonos does a pretty good job creating a phantom center with enhanced voice clarity. However, it does have the full 5.1 channels to play with.

In this setup, I think the TV is just sending some crappy 2.0 downmix to my amp.

In an ideal world, the TV should decode the 5.1 mix and offer to use its internal speakers for the center channel. It can then send the modified L-R channels to the ARC. But decoding licenses are expensive and TV manufacturers are cheap. They do not even bother to put in a gigabit ethernet interface.

Or, there should be a soundbar with L-R preamp out...

 

[Rufus T. Firefly]

What is the recommended way to add a center channel to an existing 2.0 system connected to a TV through HDMI ARC?

My amp has HT passthrough. However, it seems excessive to get a 7.1 AVR with pre-out (it probably won't fit into my cabinet) just to add one channel.

Is there something like an active center speaker that:

1. takes HDMI ARC input
2. decodes surround formats
3. extracts center channel and plays it
4. output L and R through RCA

One would think many people with a 2-channel system will want to add a center speaker for better TV dialogs.

Alternatively, who makes the smallest Class D, 3.1/5.1 AVR with pre-outs? I have space for half-width, 2U or maybe 3U at most.

I've been trying to figure this out myself and I haven't found an acceptable answer. I may just buy a Sonos Arc (the three piece set up) and keep my 2.1 completely separate.

 

[curiouspeter]

I've been trying to figure this out myself and I haven't found an acceptable answer. I may just buy a Sonos Arc (the three piece set up) and keep my 2.1 completely separate.

Not a bad idea. We used to have a Sonos Arc. The soundstage was very narrow. It was not acceptable at all for music. But having another 2-channel setup will solve this problem.

Sonos has an excellent wireless setup for the surround speakers. It really works, if you care about having surround.

I would say the Beam is a better deal. We did not find "atmos" convincing. You need ceiling speakers.

 

[Holmz]

…
Or, there should be a soundbar with L-R preamp out...

Some sound bars are pretty bright, a shrill and grating… you likely need to have a good listen.

 

[curiouspeter]

Some sound bars are pretty bright, a shrill and grating… you likely need to have a good listen.

Sound bars are unredeemable except for Netflix watching. Sadly, we do a bit of that.

 

[Holmz]

Sound bars are unredeemable except for Netflix watching. Sadly, we do a bit of that.

Well the Mrs heard a sound bar and said, “you sort it out, and make it be more listenable than this.”

 

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Not a bad idea. We used to have a Sonos Arc. The soundstage was very narrow. It was not acceptable at all for music. But having another 2-channel setup will solve this problem.

Sonos has an excellent wireless setup for the surround speakers. It really works, if you care about having surround.

I would say the Beam is a better deal. We did not find "atmos" convincing. You need ceiling speakers.

That’s where the the two Sones ones come into play…. hopefulily. I haven’t listened to it yet as we’re still two or three weeks from moving onto our new house and being able to home demo anything.

One could go the route of having an AVR with a pre out and separate amps for each speaker but then you run into the claims that the DAC’s are not up to par. And paying for a lot of stuff that isn’t being used like amplification for five or seven channels.

One could have an AVR and a separate 2 channel and only have three speakers an just change the speaker wires depending on what ones current application but that’s a lot of gear for a wife who isn’t really fond of looking at electronics, cables or speakers.

 

[curiouspeter]

That’s where the the two Sones ones come into play…. hopefulily. I haven’t listened to it yet as we’re still two or three weeks from moving onto our new house and being able to home demo anything.

One could go the route of having an AVR with a pre out and separate amps for each speaker but then you run into the claims that the DAC’s are not up to par. And paying for a lot of stuff that isn’t being used like amplification for five or seven channels.

One could have an AVR and a separate 2 channel and only have three speakers an just change the speaker wires depending on what ones current application but that’s a lot of gear for a wife who isn’t really fond of looking at electronics, cables or speakers.

On my 4.0 Sonos setup I have a speaker-level A/B switch so I can share the same L/R with a Gustard/Teac stack.

BTW, I am shocked that wireless rear surround sound support is not a standard feature for all AVRs. Many people want surround sound but they do not want to run wires.

 

[Andysu]

Sound bars are unredeemable except for Netflix watching. Sadly, we do a bit of that.

soundbars are garbage trash from the looks of them .
by the way , i like your cat .

my cat Sooty gets his own front and centre row seat for proper JBL cinema speaker listening and cats have the best listening ears around .

look around on ebay under , JBL professional cinema speakers plenty of used ones from 1980's thou still made into the 1990's early 2000 that be more than satisfactory , get three matching ones , recommended ones small JBL 4673A i use them myself or classic JBL 4675A build baffle wall and fit them in it and feel the sound power for far less than what everyone else is paying out on , even those new rubbish soundbars costing thousands for rubbish dinky glorified looking centre channel which is what they look like . get JBL professional . JBL is what movies are mixed with and used for reproduction playback .

 

[curiouspeter]

soundbars are garbage trash from the looks of them .
by the way , i like your cat .
View attachment 233662

my cat Sooty gets his own front and centre row seat for proper JBL cinema speaker listening and cats have the best listening ears around .
View attachment 233663

look around on ebay under , JBL professional cinema speakers plenty of used ones from 1980's thou still made into the 1990's early 2000 that be more than satisfactory , get three matching ones , recommended ones small JBL 4673A i use them myself or classic JBL 4675A build baffle wall and fit them in it and feel the sound power for far less than what everyone else is paying out on , even those new rubbish soundbars costing thousands for rubbish dinky glorified looking centre channel which is what they look like . get JBL professional . JBL is what movies are mixed with and used for reproduction playback .

I know my stereo imaging is good because my cat will always go to the same spot right between the speakers when I play bird videos on YouTube.

 

[Andysu]

I know my stereo imaging is good because my cat will always go to the same spot right between the speakers when I play bird videos on YouTube.

that is what one my cats does . he's into star trek seagulls . centre channel is muted so only sound of L R which mostly has background atmospheric water seagull fishing reels and other fx sound . Bear actually thinks the seagulls are in the room .

my other cat Magic reacts to training day . he actually thinks pigeons are in the room ? the mix is so acoustically realistic with fluttering of the wings and hooting . he often looks at them outside the window but he remembers the sound .

Sooty not minding Hector . Magic didn't like Hector so he left .

lets see your cat reacting to youtube birds .

 

[Holmz]

Almost always I turn on the preamp, the amp, the TV and the DVD (which does the NetFlix).
In any case it takes 90 seconds for the preamp to switch to “On”.

Today I turned it all on and as I sat down the TV audio started up almost immediately.
I thought, “Damn it, how did its volume get turned back on?”
So I went to adjust it and it was at 0 or maybe 1 (out of 100)… and I thought how the hell can the TV be making the sound.

Perplexed… I looked over and saw that I had forgotten to turn the preamp off last night, or maybe I took more than 90 seconds...

That center image is pretty convincing. I was not expecting the stereo speakers to be on, and I would have sworn it was coming from the TV.

 

[RosalieTheDog]

I have 4.0 in my other setup with two Sonos Amps. Sonos does a pretty good job creating a phantom center with enhanced voice clarity. However, it does have the full 5.1 channels to play with.

In this setup, I think the TV is just sending some crappy 2.0 downmix to my amp.

In an ideal world, the TV should decode the 5.1 mix and offer to use its internal speakers for the center channel. It can then send the modified L-R channels to the ARC. But decoding licenses are expensive and TV manufacturers are cheap. They do not even bother to put in a gigabit ethernet interface.

Or, there should be a soundbar with L-R preamp out...

Have you considered playing with the TV-settings and or changing the source? I notice quite a difference between the sound of the NVidia shield streaming (via HDMI > TV > Optical > Dac) and streaming directly through the smart TV (TV > Optical > Dac) with my two channel set-up; I wonder if this way bypasses some TV audio processing. I can put both NVidia and TV on direct bitstream instead of PCM, which suggests my DAC does the decoding. No idea what that means or why that would make a difference, since at the source I specify stereo audio, and the DAC definitely cannot handle DOLBY etc.

Secondly, on this forum there is some talk of the Canton Smart Connect 5.1 (or the amp version), a pretty affordable receiver (in Europe at least). It accepts all kinds of audio formats from the TV via hdmi, and sends it out via RCA or even wirelessly, for €600. It has settings like 'movie', 'dialogue' that supposedly allow you to highlight specific parts of the mix even in a stereo set-up.