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The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

Gringoaudio1

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It doesn't matter. Sonus Fabers aren't very good.

This far off topic anyway. March Audio didn't make any major design errors. He's competent. The only issue as I see it is his temper and defensiveness.
Your Sonus Faber value judgment is completely subjective. You dismiss them like you know something. Please elaborate. Every speaker has its followers. They wouldn’t be so popular if they didn’t have something going for them. Certainly not everyone’s cup of tea. Their older models are too rolled off for me. Their style and snoot appeal is probably what they mainly have going for them for the moneyed crowd but I like what I’ve heard. That kind of cabinet work is not cheap.
 

Curvature

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Your Sonus Faber value judgment is completely subjective. You dismiss them like you know something. Please elaborate. Every speaker has its followers. They wouldn’t be so popular if they didn’t have something going for them. Certainly not everyone’s cup of tea. Their older models are too rolled off for me. Their style and snoot appeal is probably what they mainly have going for them for the moneyed crowd but I like what I’ve heard. That kind of cabinet work is not cheap.
Few quick examples:

Venere 1.5
1663299759828.png

1663299926632.png



Cremona
1663299837919.png


Sonetto II
1663299950390.png


Objectively mediocre, IMO.

The Sointuva is far better—which was my point.
 

theREALdotnet

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..technically
By that I assume you mean that it may measure better, but not sound better?

Are you implying that the measurement reference we use to determine “better”, e.g. the Harman curve, is wrong, or that FR measurements are generally unsuitable for judging the sound of a speaker?
 

fpitas

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sq225917

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@the real dotnet. I'm implying there's a lack of rigour in using the term 'measures better' when that's what we mean. Being specific saves confusion and pointless arguments. We regulars know what we mean but the shorthand isn't helpful.

And yes, the harman numbers apply to that room only.
 

Curvature

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@the real dotnet. I'm implying there's a lack of rigour in using the term 'measures better' when that's what we mean. Being specific saves confusion and pointless arguments. We regulars know what we mean but the shorthand isn't helpful.

And yes, the harman numbers apply to that room only.
"Apply to that room only" is reductive considering the accuracy of PIR.
 

Gringoaudio1

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Sorry this whole Sonus Faber thing is off-topic but one last question…
So yes they appear to measure poorly. Thanks for the curves. With EQ these days has FR of a speaker been rendered irrelevant? You can go back in and correct FR of anything as Amir has shown. Disappointing to see those curves of course and I too found one equally as disappointing for my Venere 3.0 which I clearly bought for the wrong reasons. They look great and I figured that they would sound good being high-end (before I knew better thanks to ASR). And I had a bit of snoot envy. Wanted to rub shoulders with the kind of people who buy expensive things. Expensive Italian things. So I bought the ‘budget’ Sonus Fabers and a 20 year old Ducati. But with EQ they sound amazing. Danny Richie found that filling the kerfs on the inside of the curved walls helps with cabinet resonance. I will try that sometime.
 
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Xulonn

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Danny Richie found that filling the kerfs on the inside of the curved walls helps with cabinet resonance. I will try that sometime.
Resonances can be verified with instrumentation [LINK] , and Danny has built some decent speakers. Unfortunately, he seems to hear sonic differences that cannot be verified to actually exist. Did he measaure those cabinet resonances and publish the methods and results?
 

Thomas_A

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Resonances can be verified with instrumentation [LINK] , and Danny has built some decent speakers. Unfortunately, he seems to hear sonic differences that cannot be verified to actually exist. Did he measaure those cabinet resonances and publish the methods and results?
See also
 

Gringoaudio1

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Sorry this whole Sonus Faber thing is off-topic but one last question…
So yes they appear to measure poorly. Thanks for the curves. With EQ these days has FR of a speaker been rendered irrelevant? You can go back in and correct FR of anything as Amir has shown. Disappointing to see those curves of course and I too found one equally as disappointing for my Venere 3.0.
See also
Nice! What are you using to interface the accelerometer to your pc? Just a voltage out looking at the spec sheet.
And what application is generating your graphs? Thanks.
Also the super thin double sided tape for attachment without ruining the speaker finish?
Anyone have any opinions on FR not particularly mattering anymore and that sins of FR can be corrected with EQ?
 

Curvature

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Subjectively they sounded pretty o’roight.
I've listened to the Sonus Faber Il Cremonese. Good but not great.
Sorry this whole Sonus Faber thing is off-topic but one last question…
So yes they appear to measure poorly. Thanks for the curves. With EQ these days has FR of a speaker been rendered irrelevant? You can go back in and correct FR of anything as Amir has shown. Disappointing to see those curves of course and I too found one equally as disappointing for my Venere 3.0 which I clearly bought for the wrong reasons. They look great and I figured that they would sound good being high-end (before I knew better thanks to ASR). And I had a bit of snoot envy. Wanted to rub shoulders with the kind of people who buy expensive things. Expensive Italian things. So I bought the ‘budget’ Sonus Fabers and a 20 year old Ducati. But with EQ they sound amazing. Danny Richie found that filling the kerfs on the inside of the curved walls helps with cabinet resonance. I will try that sometime.
On the EQ question. Think of frequency response for speakers in 3D terms. As the position of measurement is changed, so will the measured response.

EQ works but since it is a total change to the signal, it will boost or decrease a certain bandwidth in a speaker's 3D field without regard to angle. This might be ok if directivity is good, smooth, predictable, but certain errors are not fixable. A speaker that beams, like most (all?) Sonus Fabers, beaming here referring to a significant drop in high frequency power when moving away from the speaker's front baffle, is unfixable. The overall balance will be off.
 

Gringoaudio1

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Danny Ritchie found that the Venere 2.5 had decent off axis response so it doesn’t beam as far as he is concerned. He designed a completely new crossover and didn’t just upgrade what he called a ‘cheesy’ factory crossover. FR looked very good after. Not sure what process was used to design the crossover.
The spectral decay he said was good before his mods and excellent after. He provides graphics. Nothing in them or FR curve suggests cabinet resonances however.
I have to assume that my Venere 3.0 cabinets would be similarly resonant or non- resonant.
I’m curious to know what he did but will settle for EQ until I have time and money to open my speakers up and play with them.

 
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Holmz

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I've listened to the Sonus Faber Il Cremonese. Good but not great.
...

Many speakers sound good or great.
But how am I to really know?
When I get to the shop, i am usually in a good mood, they have everything setup in a room that designed to show off the gear and playing stuff that speaks to the speaker’s strength.
It is hard to translate the sound spatially from the shop to my house. And therefore the measurements provide some backup to what I hear.


Danny Ritchie found that the Venere 2.5 had decent off axis response so it doesn’t beam as far as he is concerned. He designed a completely new crossover and didn’t just upgrade what he called a ‘cheesy’ factory crossover. FR looked very good after. Not sure what process was used to design the crossover.
The spectral decay he said was good before his mods and excellent after. He provides graphics. Nothing in them or FR curve suggests cabinet resonances however.
I have to assume that my Venere 3.0 cabinets would be similarly resonant or non- resonant.
I’m curious to know what he did but will settle for EQ until I have time and money to open my speakers up and play with them.

I suppose if you own them, then why not.

But he talks about cabinet resonance and he then shows a 25 dB decay and says it is good…
and talks about filling gaps, and adding anti—res… and later says it is better.
Ok, but it was already good.

And note that in Erin’s review he said that the Sonituva had the best damping he had seen in a speaker.

Then Danny talks about the steel binding posts, and replacing those.
But the Sonituva already come with ETI binding posts.

And the things are 2-1/2 to 3x larger than the Sonituva jobs, so we are sort in tower territory.
 

Xulonn

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Then Danny talks about the steel binding posts, and replacing those.
What measurable signal alterations or audible changes would result from changing the metal of the binding posts?
 

Holmz

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What measurable signal alterations or audible changes would result from changing the metal of the binding posts?

I don’t know, it seems a bit magical… but it has to do with magnetic flux or whatever it is called as the current generate magnetic fields.
And a few of people I respect a lot, and many that I do not respect as much, claim it is important.

Whether it makes a difference of not, Danny was spruiking them as something to fix, and the Sointuva already has them.


It also better 2 better drivers, than the SF speakers… and it has 2 passive radiators versus the port of the SF.

So looking at a $2500 speaker with $500 upgrade (plus time), still does not seem to be an improvement unless one wants a tower and lower frequency extension.
And the Sointuva have shockingly good bass, down to ~40Hz.
Or one wants a painted black speaker, or an 100 other non musical factors.
 

Holmz

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None, your speakers would sound the same. However, Danny would hear the sound of your money being transferred to his bank account.

What proof do we have of that?
It would e really take some measurements with high current to evaluate whether it makes a difference or not.
But a transformer core has hysteresis, so a metal binding post could have hysteresis. It is not out of the realm of possibility.
 
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