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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

voodooless

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I think to younger people it will be quite clear that critical thinking is necessary. They have access to so much information, that it's clear that not all is correct, simply because there are so many inconsistencies.
 

HarmonicTHD

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At least in the UK, the education system is arming kids on how to deal with this. They are now being taught critical thinking skills to help them identify good sources of info amongst the piles of dross available to them.
I admire your optimism given how people reacted to facts and obvious non facts in the past 5 years worldwide.
 

Robbo99999

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So would I however an increasingly significant percentage of the population is receiving their information this way. I do not think there is any sixth sense for BS on the internet unfortunately (face to face yes). This is one of the challenges of our times and one of the points I was attempting to make in my earlier post.

Take the recent example of a “peer reviewed” paper released by an individual with credentials which proposed there was an audible distinction between cheap, mid and expensive cables. Post that on TicToc or whatever platform penetrates your target demographic and you will convert 90% of those who watch it. The fact that the paper was full of baseless claims, false statements and his credentials were not relevant to the field under discussion is not detail available to the recipient (without further work).

A political party without a firm understanding of how the “truth” is now delivered to their electorate is a party that will lose these days. Look at how recent elections in the US have been impacted (trying not to name names).
I know, it's worrying that increasingly large amounts of people get their news from social media, it's very skewed.
 

SIY

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Hello,

I've spent a few days meditating and discussing, and I think I understand the core of the issue. Furthermore, I am hoping, this post can help resolve our disagreements.

Disagreements between the so-called "subjective" and "objective" audiophiles arise from a dichotomy in the definition of the word audiophile itself.

Cambridge dictionary: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/audiophile

"a person who is very interested in and enthusiastic about equipment for playing recorded sound, and its quality"

Merriam webster
: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/audiophile

"a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction"

As you can see, the first definition above is purposefully and intractably subjective. The enthusiasm is focused on the equipment and its quality. Quality here is clearly referring to the equipment and not the recorded sound itself as it comes after a comma. This definition clearly aims to be inclusive of placebo and the sum total of indicators that make up the audio experience. Including what you touch, how it feels, what you know about it, and what others think.

However, the second definition forays into the concept of fidelity. Fidelity refers to the devotion to the source, not to some magical original moment when the audio was recorded. It is clear, that we can never replicate a moment of the past in its entirety. However, we can replicate a recorded sound and make efforts to have that replication done with as less flaws as possible.

The best metaphor for this is a dirty vs clean wineglass that taints the wine your pour into it. If you are trying to learn what wine really tastes like, you would like to drink from a clean glass.

I would further like to concede that after watching this video (and Amir's review of the Niagra power conditioner) -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WfWHC05lbg&t=18s. It is clear that we cannot trust our ears. And anyone who says that their ears are the measure of all objective truth simply does not understand how interconnected our biology is. It is equivalent to seeing a mirage on the road and showing up with swimming trunks over and over again.

It is time to either create a new word for the subjective audiophile or for the objective audiophile. It is clear to me that both communities can no longer claim dominion over this word without perverting its meaning.

Disclaimer - My change in opinion does not force me to chastise lovers of vinyl or tube amplifiers or any implementation that is objectively inferior.

Furthermore, why do the fringe members of ASR have to bandy together to excommunicate these people who are simply chasing a particular kind of sound that resides in their hearts? Is it not possible that people who grew up with vinyl prefer its flaws? Why must you make them feel bad just so that you can feel better about yourself? (mainly the radical fringe community)

However, lovers of flaws, you must also in turn concede that your wineglass has salt on its rim because you are drinking margaritas not wine. And you must also concede the following (excerpt from L7 wolf)

If the playback of a device with more harmonics is used as a benchmark, the device with less harmonics will sound like something is missing.

I hope we can create a more inclusive world together instead of falling into silos filled only with people who agree with us.

Thank you for making it this far.
Shorter version: using basic controls ruins my fun.
 

Mulder

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So ASR consists mainly of a group of people drawn to this subject. They usually prefer signal fidelity over personal taste. Get satisfaction/a sense of security that the used gear is not going to stand in the way. They believe (yes believe) that the original music file should be reproduced as closely as possible to the, handed to them, recording.
........ Others may want as much recordings as they can find to sound pleasant. This requires a different approach, different gear, different wallet and the look for something they like.
There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Color things every way you want. However, followers of the signal fidelity church will disagree. That should be clear to them.

There's the rub. "Signal fidelity aficionados" and "music enjoyment aficionados" mean something entirely different with the word 'good' and 'poor' based on their religion practiced in their community.
No matter which aficionados enter a different community to preach their belief run the risk of being chastised by convinced people. Regardless of what other folks in that community even think or deem necessary.
Hmm Interesting, but I gather that the real awkward disagreement is more about whether a particular piece of equipment in the sound reproduction has any effect at all. "Subjectivists" tend to dismiss blind tests, and emphatically claim that cables, power cleaners, etc. lead to clearly audible differences in the positive direction. The "objectivists" usually dismiss this, precisely because measurements show that it does not affect the fidelity of the signal, and therefore cannot at all affect the sound that reach our ears - and that improvement anyone hear must be identified as imagination. This is not about preferring one or the other, it is about whether one believes in measurements at all or if one's own auditory impression always trumps what can be determined objectively. It's a bit like witchcraft or voodoo pitted against science.
 
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BDWoody

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It is clear that we cannot trust our ears. And anyone who says that their ears are the measure of all objective truth simply does not understand how interconnected our biology is.

I believe this is the major division. I don't think anyone here really cares if someone likes their turntable or tube amp. I have 4 turntables and hundreds of records, and I don't remember anyone telling me I'm an idiot for owning them (even before I was moderator...;). If I were here telling everyone how much better it is than digital, that would be a different issue.

Furthermore, why do the fringe members of ASR have to bandy together to excommunicate these people who are simply chasing a particular kind of sound that resides in their hearts?

I'm not sure about the excommunicate part, but this isn't a site for people to talk about the sound that resides in their hearts as much as the signal that comes out of the device. There are plenty of places where people can work on their creative writing skills, but here we try to provide evidence based information for those who believe that matters.

And you must also concede the following (excerpt from L7 wolf)

If the playback of a device with more harmonics is used as a benchmark, the device with less harmonics will sound like something is missing.

I'm not sure I must concede anything if there isn't evidence to back it up. How much more distortion before it becomes identifiable as present or missing? Is it preferred? Is there real data to support that? You know...any evidence?

People generally come here to get clear evidence based answers to questions they often didn't even know they had. If all one does is listen to the 'high end' propaganda machine, there will be a lot of 'unlearning' to do before they can start building based on actual knowledge, as opposed to crowdsourced feelings and thinly disguised sales pitches masquerading as reviews.

You seem to believe we all need to come to an understanding. Who is it that needs better understanding?
 

HarmonicTHD

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I believe this is the major division. I don't think anyone here really cares if someone likes their turntable or tube amp. I have 4 turntables and hundreds of records, and I don't remember anyone telling me I'm an idiot for owning them (even before I was moderator...;). If I were here telling everyone how much better it is than digital, that would be a different issue.



I'm not sure about the excommunicate part, but this isn't a site for people to talk about the sound that resides in their hearts as much as the signal that comes out of the device. There are plenty of places where people can work on their creative writing skills, but here we try to provide evidence based information for those who believe that matters.



I'm not sure I must concede anything if there isn't evidence to back it up. How much 'more distortion' before it becomes identifiable as present or missing? Is it preferred? Is there real data to support that? You know...any evidence?

People generally come here to get clear evidence based answers to questions they often didn't even know they had. If all one does is listen to the 'high end' propaganda machine, there will be a lot of 'unlearning' to do before they can start building based on actual knowledge, as opposed to crowdsourced feelings and thinly disguised sales pitches masquerading as reviews.

You seem to believe we all need to come to an understanding. Who is it that needs better understanding?
Nicely said.

We do not have to come to an agreement. This is not a negotiation either.
It would be like starting to negotiate and make concessions whether gravity exists and how much of it.
 

antcollinet

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I admire your optimism given how people reacted to facts and obvious non facts in the past 5 years worldwide.
I've no idea if or how this is done worldwide. Further, I'd suggest that reaction to "alternative truths" over the past 5 years, probably hasn't been carried out in the most part by people who have recently been (or who are being) educated via more updated teaching methods.
 

HarmonicTHD

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I've no idea if or how this is done worldwide. Further, I'd suggest that reaction to "alternative truths" over the past 5 years, probably hasn't been carried out in the most part by people who have recently been (or who are being) educated via more updated teaching methods.
Yeah that might be. So send them back to school. ;-)
 

Blumlein 88

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Nicely said.

We do not have to come to an agreement. This is not a negotiation either.
It would be like starting to negotiate and make concessions whether gravity exists and how much of it.
Is it okay to use 22/7ths for pi just between friends?
 

solderdude

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it is about whether one believes in measurements

For measurements to make any sense one would have to understand what (specific) measurements can and above all can not show.
Preferably not 'partly understand' or merely think they understand. This is equally dangerous as not understanding at all.

Of course you are also right that a lot of people that lets say... 'are not interested in measurements' tell more and bigger porkies and are fiercer in defending their beliefs than the ones that have some tangible evidence.

Believing is something one does when lacking profound knowledge (but thinking they have it) so one can believe cables make a difference (and in specific cases they do) and believe something is audible because they could clearly hear it without any actual proof.
On the other hand... one also can believe all one needs to know is a single number which characterizes something. Think SINAD, speaker/headphone rating number etc.

I can't say who is more 'right'.
The one picking a headphone/speaker/DAC/Amp because it has a higher rating or someone that tries some speakers/headphones/equipment and determines by ear what they find to sound 'really good'.
As with everything the truth is probably in the middle.

One can use measurements to verify operation/performance or to improve performance (room correction for instance) but incorrect measurements, while believing they were done properly, may not lead to proper or satisfactory results.
While 'winging it' based on preference will always lead to something the owner (not necessarily someone else) is content with regardless how technically proficient it is.

For setting up a studio different rules apply as that for music enjoyment in the home.
In the first case you want to work from a verified reference, in the latter case it does not matter how it measures.
 

Blumlein 88

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Well here is one statement from one infant school - so starting at the beginning of education....

I would be really surprised if this is the approach of general education for starting out in school in England. OTOH, I'm not there so cannot say otherwise, plus I hope it is the norm. Or will become the norm.
 

Spkrdctr

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Scared of being duped and misled. There are so many opinions regarding audio gear that it must be a minefield of ideas to try and walk through.
But that is because they are challenged by the most basic science ideas of life. They need to crack open a book. One thing I notice as an old duffer is that younger people in general (but not all of course) will not read anything. If it is longer than one paragraph, forget it. It is like learning by sound bite. Another one is learning from late night talk show hosts. That should be against the law as it dumbs down our society. But, I am taking the high road. If people want to be idiotic, dumb and ignorant I need to relax and let them. It is in the trying to fight the lunacy that sucks the joy out of life. I now stand on the curb (mentally) and just watch the train wrecks!
 

Spkrdctr

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How many people will listen to Kunchur because he is a credentialed scientist and even claims to be using blind testing to find out cables really do matter and so do high sample rates. Yet it is all bad information. If you don't know electronics, or signal transmission theory, how do you know he isn't credible outside his field?

I know a few people who should have or in the past did have more sense, but they are on facebook. It is nearly unbelievable some complete garbage things those people believe. Not just believe, but firmly believe all from listening to some BS artist on facebook. Trying to show them real facts is worse than changing someone's religion. It is mind blowing. Now my policy is if they learn something on facebook just don't discuss it with them.
Remember Facebook NEVER lies. It is a paragon of truth. If you are in doubt ask a fact checker. We all know a FB fact checker is never wrong.

I say that sarcastically as the fact checkers being right is about 10% in stuff I read. Often times I think the fact checkers are sound bite taught youngsters. They have no clue about what they think they are fact checking. It is appalling how bad fact checking is on FB.
 

Spkrdctr

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I think to younger people it will be quite clear that critical thinking is necessary. They have access to so much information, that it's clear that not all is correct, simply because there are so many inconsistencies.
I think the younger kids are being brainwashed. They have zero knowledge of critical thinking and buy most of what they are told hook line and sinker. That is why home schooling has become such a big deal. I wish I saw a silver lining in this situation but I don't at this time. I think the problem is that the access to information is online and usually wrong. YouTube is the biggest purveyor of rubbish. Maybe 10% of YouTube videos are factual? I have no clue how to fix the problem other than to start a new totalitarian state and I'm in charge of everything. Or, I could just be the Grand Poobah of the Universe!

Reminder: The Grand Poohbah is second to the Supreme Overlord of the Universe which is Amir's title!
 
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voodooless

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I think the younger kids are being brainwashed. They have zero knowledge of critical thinking and buy most of what they are told hook line and sinker.
Kids are always vulnerable obviously. And they are more prone to accepting whatever you tell them. But I do feel (and I cannot prove that) that the current younglings will have an easier time navigating the high seas and making sense of things. I may just be too positive...
That is why home schooling has become such a big deal.
That seems to be a highly localized thing (mostly North American I guess). Where I live, that does not happen, in fact, it's prohibited ;)
I wish I saw a silver lining in this situation but I don't at this time. I think the problem is that the access to information is online and usually wrong. YouTube is the biggest purveyor of rubbish. Maybe 10% of YouTube videos are factual?
I'd be much more worried about TikTok, to be honest.
I have no clue how to fix the problem other than to start a new totalitarian state and I'm in charge of everything.
Yeah, there is a great book about that, it's called "1984"... You can read how well that works... ;)
 

Spkrdctr

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Yeah, there is a great book about that, it's called "1984"... You can read how well that works... ;)
Yes, but it is me. Good old super nice guy Spkrdctr. You can trust me with absolute power. I will take care of all of your needs. Trust me!

OMG, I think I have watched too much YouTube. Luckily I don't do Tik Tok as it would put me in the nut house........
 

voodooless

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OMG, I think I have watched too much YouTube. Luckily I don't do Tik Tok as it would put me in the nut house........
I don’t do TikTok either, but according to YouTube it’s very scary. Make it it what you will :facepalm:;)
 
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