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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

jtgofish

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Once you put in basic controls so that evaluation is done by sound alone and look at the important (to the ear) variables, the correlation between measurements and sound is excellent.
Could you point us to properly collected data like large sample size double blind tests involving experienced listeners which supports that claim?
I can imagine that could well be the case if you include components and speakers with quite bad measurements [especially speakers] but would be very surprised if you could do it with ones that are slightly bad.And how would you decide and define what was good and what was slightly bad?
And even then you would be quoting an average trend and not specific products which might be an exception.Like some high end valve amps or SS amps which are reputed to sound excellent that might not measure very well.Something like a Dartzeel NHB 108 power amp for example which uses no negtaive feedback so does not measure as well as many other SS amps.
 
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SIY

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Could you point us to properly collected data like large sample size scale double blind tests involving experienced listeners which supports that claim?
I can imagine that could well be the case if you include components and speakers with quite bad measurements [especially speakers] but would be very surprised if you could do it with ones that are slightly bad.And how would you decide and define what was good and what was slightly bad?
About 50 years worth of literature? Start with Lipshitz & Vanderkooy's papers from 40-50 years ago. Keep following the trail to Olive and Toole.
 

BDWoody

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If my sonic preference is a signal that isn't noisy or distorted with a flat frequency response, (in other words I prefer High Fidelity), how do measurements not show me what I need to know?

How well do you understand them?
How would you know that is what you prefer if you have not conducted comparisons [ideally unsighted ] with components that have less "perfect" measurements?

So, you seem to be doing the troll dance where you avoid the questions you aren't happy with.

Let's go back...

IF my sonic preference is a clean, flat signal, determined however that was determined, are measurements not going to be helpful to me?

Second question is how well do you understand these measurements?

Have YOU done controlled testing to determine what you prefer? If so, you might be able to come up with a distortion or noise profile that you seem to consistently prefer over the flat, clean kind, then you would have a clue as to what you might want to look for. Are you interested in narrowing down your choices? If I'm starting from flat and clean, I can add whatever I want to it through DSP and EQ. If I'm starting from something else, I can't really remove noise and distortion from the signal...it is there always and forever.
 

jtgofish

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...determined however that was determined?
Even if you had a preference for a clean flat signal and had a room and speakers that could reproduce that [which is extremely rare] there are many other factors that you might have preference for which are not strictly related to frequency response.Imaging and soundstage shape and depth for example [or the ability to produce a convincing phantom centre image or proper stereo effect].Factors which are much harder to measure and which have been documented and described through many years of unsighted testing [Hi Fi Choice group tests for example] to be significantly different between different sources,preamps,power amps and integrated amps.So your preference for a clean flat signal might also mean a preference for a flat 2D sort of sound.The rest of the sonic picture might be lacking to various degrees.I have owned amplifiers with extremely good measurements that sounded really 2D.Horrible things.
 

BDWoody

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Factors which are much harder to measure and which have been documented and described through many years of unsighted testing [Hi Fi Choice group tests for example] to be significantly different between different sources,preamps,power amps and integrated amps.

Can you link to one of these please? Pick one good one, and let's see how they did these tests.

So, for the third time, how well do you understand the measurements done?
 

killdozzer

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OK. I find this challenging and I accept the challenge. BEFORE I start, this is my genuine effort at giving some material for people to think about and perhaps we’ll better understand each other as a result of this.

I have NO intention of provoking, insulting, demeaning or otherwise hurting anyone. But I WILL be quite frank and straight forward.

Here goes: it’s true! I DO think flat frequency response is superior. AND, I think it’s superior for everyone involved, even the boutique audiophiles.

First the neutral gear:

Briefly, FFR is not dull, flat, flabby, unexciting… This is a term that means that “what you feed a piece of equipment, will be what comes out”. It will NOT flatten out or make dull some audio material that isn’t otherwise dull in the first place, due to production. If it’s dull, you hear it dull, if it’s exciting, you hear it as such (whatever that meant to anyone).

NO ONE is saying you should leave all of your gear completely neutral since most here understand it’s not possible. Me and my brother have exactly the same equipment in different houses, so who has the neutral one, right? They sound completely different.

Even if the gear is neutral, it can only perform as such in an an-echoic room and that was probably the last time it did. You always have to fine tune it (or at least should). You buy gear, you see how it interacts with your space and fine tune it.

IMPORTANT: whatever you want from your gear, you’ll get it more easily if it’s as neutral as possible. Dialing back some distinctive voicing you, accidentally, don’t like is not as easy as you may think. It’s not just – lower the bass and raise the treble, for example. So, ALL your preferences are easier to achieve with neutral equipment and that’s why I say it’s superior even for those of you who like certain sound signatures.



Now, sound signatures.

Buying sound signature equipment is not as subjective as you may think. It’s just another brand and all of them are mass produced. It’s not your individual taste, it’s more like; do you prefer Mercedes or Porsche. It is NOT taylor-made for your listening room and your ears in particular.

Expecting some company to tap blind in the dark until it accidentally stumbles upon the sound signature that will perform in your house the way you imagined, even though their testing room has nothing in common with your house… I don’t know, you should rather play lottery. It’s not impossible, but life’s too short.

One other thing, trial and error would imply that you can only decide after hearing them all. Who knows, maybe in the shop next to the one you've visited is the love of your life, but you just got tired that day and missed on it.

Many of the usual arguments of the “sounds good to me” crowd, fall short even for their own choices. Thinking a company will guess what you like and what “sounds good to you” (even though most of you think we all hear a bit differently, which would include you and the manufacturer) by accident is less than convincing.

If gear preforms well, doesn’t add or subtract, it is RELIABLE for all your sound signature explorations. It is, so to speak, more tunable or at least much more easily tunable and thus, IMO, superior.

This is why I DON’T think our choices are equal and are just a matter of opinion in this one regard; in the DSP era, we can both use FFR gear much more effectively and much more easily than sound sig. gear. Chances you will hit it on the head with blind guessing are negligible.
 
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killdozzer

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...determined however that was determined?
Even if you had a preference for a clean flat signal and had a room and speakers that could reproduce that [which is extremely rare] there are many other factors that you might have preference for which are not strictly related to frequency response.Imaging and soundstage shape and depth for example [or the ability to produce a convincing phantom centre image or proper stereo effect].Factors which are much harder to measure and which have been documented and described through many years of unsighted testing [Hi Fi Choice group tests for example] to be significantly different between different sources,preamps,power amps and integrated amps.So your preference for a clean flat signal might also mean a preference for a flat 2D sort of sound.The rest of the sonic picture might be lacking to various degrees.I have owned amplifiers with extremely good measurements that sounded really 2D.Horrible things.
A lot of inaccurate statements that have been debunked so many times that you could expect someone to lose patience which is why some new members get the feeling that they're not allowed their own opinion as I tried to explain a day or two ago.
 

jtgofish

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Can you link to one of these please? Pick one good one, and let's see how they did these tests.

So, for the third time, how well do you understand the measurements done?
Hi Fi Choice ran monthly group tests of all sorts of audio components for many years.They were conducted by a very experienced team of their reviewers /writers and and involved multiple unsighted listening sessions from which ratings and comments were compiled.The products were also professionally measured and that information published together with the listening results.They abandoned that process some years ago.iIstill have some magazines from 1995 which reviewed some components which i bought on their recommendation.I still have a CD player from that time which still sounds excellent [and which sounds very 3D which is what they said].I am not sure if there are any of those pubilcations from that era available online .

I believe i understand the measurements well enough.I have always been interested in measurements .Especially pertaining to speakers because building and restoring speakers has been a hobby for nealy 40 years.
 

BDWoody

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They were conducted by a very experienced team of their reviewers /writers and and involved multiple unsighted listening sessions from which ratings and comments were compiled.

So, no links? Reviewers generally are the worst at setting up valid controlled tests.

We aren't making progress.
 

Mart68

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So, no links? Reviewers generally are the worst at setting up valid controlled tests.

We aren't making progress.
IIRC the Hi-Fi Choice blind tests only involved loudspeakers and there were no controls other than a black curtain in front of the speakers.

Preference was, on some occasions, for the less well-measuring speakers.
 

BDWoody

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IIRC the Hi-Fi Choice blind tests only involved loudspeakers and there were no controls other than a black curtain in front of the speakers.

Preference was, on some occasions, for the less well-measuring speakers.

Speakers are, to me, in a different category than electronics.

Evaluating motors gets tricky.

I'm more generally talking of the chain of solid state electronics leading up to driving the motors. If that chain can be selected properly for the job at hand, that just leaves the elephant that is the speakers and room to be dealt with.
 

jtgofish

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IIRC the Hi-Fi Choice blind tests only involved loudspeakers and there were no controls other than a black curtain in front of the speakers.

Preference was, on some occasions, for the less well-measuring speakers.
The blind tests involved sources and amplifiers .One even tuners.I have some of the magazines from that era which contain and describe those tests.
 

HarmonicTHD

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The blind tests involved sources and amplifiers .One even tuners.I have some of the magazines from that era which contain and describe those tests.
From 1995?

How would that compare with state of the art electronics, which are reviewed/ discussed here?

Maybe scan and post one or two of your „evidence“ articles and post them here, so everyone can have a look? Would certainly make the whole discussion more specific.
 

SIY

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From 1995?

How would that compare with state of the art electronics, which are reviewed/ discussed here?
Sonically, likely the same. Electronics has been a solved problem for many decades.
 

jtgofish

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They compare very well.I have tried state of the art modern DACs which do not sound as good as that CD player.Nor as good as my Krell and Accuphase DACs from the same era.Some of the best sounding electronics I have heard [FM Acoustics and Metaxas preamp and Dartzeel and Threshold power amps are also from that era.
 

Mart68

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The blind tests involved sources and amplifiers .One even tuners.I have some of the magazines from that era which contain and describe those tests.
I don't recall them ever blind testing electronics but not saying you are wrong. It's a long time ago now and regrettably Hi Fi Choice is not included in this archive https://worldradiohistory.com/index.htm
 
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