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Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

HarmonicTHD

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Sal1950

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You realize of course that on this forum you are not allowed to have such heretical views. You are obviously deluding yourself. :rolleyes:
You obviously have no idea what your talking about.
Maybe you'll need more than 24 posts to catch on..
When uninformed it's better to remain silent until you gain an understanding.
 

Sal1950

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for me, it's not about sound quality at all (that's a settled issue, digital is objectively better - if the source is also digital, because if not, then you have to take many variables into consideration like master tape, mastering technique, vinyl quality, etc).
This is the only technical error in your post.
It doesn't matter if the source is digital or analog.
A digital copy of an analog source can be 100% accurate / transparent to the original.
A vinyl pressing isn't capable of doing that and will contain many changes and distortions of the source..
 

Frgirard

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If the stars align, about 10dB difference, if the electronics aren't in the mix. That's why I say the noise floor of the electronics is the ideal noise floor of the LP. In most people's rooms the ambient noise floor is a bigger concern.


Just a FWIW: the first 1000 press are considered the best of the run! You got that bit backwards. There is no 'comb filtering', that bit is nonsense. The pitch thing is only there if you have an off-center LP or a bad (weak drive) turntable. On most turntables the pitch variation is so slight you can't hear the deviation. Its easier to hear the shimmer in the soundstage as the platter speeds up and slows down- the arm tracks one side of the groove with more pressure, than the other side as the speed variation causes the arm to oscillate left to right above the groove. But if you get a better machine (like the newer Technics SL1200G) this issue goes away. If your arm tracks correctly wear really isn't a thing. But it certainly is if the set up is poor or the equipment is sub-standard! The 'net has made 'comparative discographies' easy. Totally requires a ritual, but not much of one. But a ritual nonetheless.


Its a good idea to not conflate personal experience and anecdote as fact. Sounds like you had a setup problem, which IMO is the biggest argument against the LP; to really get their performance you have to have decent equipment and it has to be set up correctly. For most people the former is out of reach and probably 95% fail at the latter.
Perfect example of misinformation. You are confusing test pressing with mass production.
For comb filtering, again, a demonstration of your ignorance or belief.
Like the merchants of cables, cd players .... and their smoky theory.
 

Waxx

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I'll try to explain it more neutral. But first, before you make wrong conclusions some info about me and my setup. I' a 43 years old rudeboy punk (= a punk that listen to reggae ao "black music") with a big vinyl collection, but also a big digital collection and i use both. Of many music i have, i have both the vinyl and the high res digital version btw and play both, depending on the situation.

The vinyl vs digital is best compaired like a painting vs a photo of an event. The painting is not accurate, the photo is. But some will still think the painting is more beautifull than the photo, even if it's not accurate. It's not accuracy they want, but a nice view. Here on this forum most want accuracy, so you may not get the point, but that does not matter. Go listen digital and leave the vinyl for those "idiots" who love it (i'm one of them btw) and don't care that much about accuracy if it sounds good to the ears.
 

Frgirard

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I'll try to explain it more neutral. But first, before you make wrong conclusions some info about me and my setup. I' a 43 years old rudeboy punk (= a punk that listen to reggae ao "black music") with a big vinyl collection, but also a big digital collection and i use both. Of many music i have, i have both the vinyl and the high res digital version btw and play both, depending on the situation.

The vinyl vs digital is best compaired like a painting vs a photo of an event. The painting is not accurate, the photo is. But some will still think the painting is more beautifull than the photo, even if it's not accurate. It's not accuracy they want, but a nice view. Here on this forum most want accuracy, so you may not get the point, but that does not matter. Go listen digital and leave the vinyl for those "idiots" who love it (i'm one of them btw) and don't care that much about accuracy if it sounds good to the ears.
You forgot the IMO.
I have remasters classical music of vinyl recorded In the 50's.
Example :Beethoven Tahra Furt 2001 1954.The level of accuracy is MAGIC superior to many digital cd.
How you measure the accuracy?
Have you see Caravage paints?

Preferences always preferences...

Why you answer behind my post?

IMO.
 

Sal1950

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Example :Beethoven Tahra Furt 2001 1954.The level of accuracy is MAGIC superior to many digital cd.
That MAGIC is called DISTORTION
 

Sal1950

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How! listen all the desks clearly is not distortion.
What is the goal of your ridiculous post?
Not ridiculous, read the spec's, do the measurements.
Vinyl is not capable of being transparent to the source, CD/digital is.
That's just the facts.
If you hear some "magic", it's either one of two things.
Distortion or sighted (imagined) bias
 

Digicile

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You obviously have no idea what your talking about.
Maybe you'll need more than 24 posts to catch on..
When uninformed it's better to remain silent until you gain an understanding.
Yesiree, you sure showed me real good! This thread would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. This is a SCIENCE forum? Sounds like a bunch of old men arguing at the senior center over somebody cheating at Bingo. I'm done with it. :cool:
 

levimax

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Not ridiculous, read the spec's, do the measurements.
Vinyl is not capable of being transparent to the source, CD/digital is.
That's just the facts.
If you hear some "magic", it's either one of two things.
Distortion or sighted (imagined) bias
The "transparent to the source" argument is a strawman in many cases. Many older sources were in better shape when pressed to vinyl than later digital transfers. Also few sources are ever transferred directly but rather "mastered" for better or for worse. Despite the obviously technical limitations of LP's for actual human listening a better source / mastering has more to do with perceived sound quality than the format.

I have been struggling to understand the frustration the "anti-vinyl" crowd seems to have with people having fun listening to records or heaven forbid say they "sound better". It seems to me many of the most vocal anti-vinyl members have "given up" vinyl and want to reassure themselves that was a good decision and may be suffering a little FOMO :)
 

Sal1950

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I'm done with it
Bye

I have been struggling to understand the frustration the "anti-vinyl" crowd seems to have with people having fun listening to records or heaven forbid say they "sound better".
I've no problem at all with you saying you have fun with vinyl, that's great.
But vinyl "sounds better" is right up there with the same claims for power cables or CD edge paints, it's baloney.
Many older sources were in better shape when pressed to vinyl than later digital transfers.
Finding some ultra rare, one in 10 million recordings as supporting evidence is the "straw man" in your post. ;)

Also few sources are ever transferred directly but rather "mastered" for better or for worse.
Exactly, I've posted many times the way good masters have to be altered to fit the weaknesses of vinyl.
Vinyl can never be transparent to the master, it just isn't technically capable.
It seems to me many of the most vocal anti-vinyl members have "given up" vinyl and want to reassure themselves that was a good decision and may be suffering a little FOMO
I don't need to be reassured, I have every LP I ever owned stored as needle drops on my computer.
Haven't listened to a one of them since the entire library became available on streaming.
 

MattHooper

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The vinyl vs digital is best compaired like a painting vs a photo of an event. The painting is not accurate, the photo is. But some will still think the painting is more beautifull than the photo, even if it's not accurate. It's not accuracy they want, but a nice view. Here on this forum most want accuracy, so you may not get the point, but that does not matter. Go listen digital and leave the vinyl for those "idiots" who love it (i'm one of them btw) and don't care that much about accuracy if it sounds good to the ears.

The photo/painting analogy is a good one! I'm surprised I don't remember seeing it before.

Keeping in mind we are talking broad generalizations, and from the point of view of someone enthusiastic about the sound of vinyl....

The way I'd take the analogy further is:

I grew up drawing and painting and also went to school for film and photography. I've long noticed the "advantages" paintings seem to have over photography. The very artifice and materials involved often makes paintings more vivid than photography. I always find this too when I go to art museums.
I love the photographs, but they always look somewhat pallid compared to many of the paintings which look much more rich and vivid. A couple of reasons I surmise this to be the case: Contrast. The contrast of a photo is often highly limited to the contrast of the film used for the photo, and to the photo paper etc. Photos on paper generally have a relatively low dynamic range (which is why photos look more vivid on many higher contrast monitors).

Whereas the painting isn't mediated or limited by the dynamic range of film or paper. The artist chooses a deep black paint and bright white highlights and they are as black/white as the paint, nothing taken away. So you can have very large ranges of contrast in paintings - you are staring directly at the materials used so it has a very vivid, immediate effect. Also of course, the texture of brush strokes can add more sense of detail or textural immediacy.

I'm often struck at how, with one of those great old paintings, it's like you can walk right in to the frame it's so immediate and "there," vs the photos that appear more flat and almost hazy in comparison.

In fact, my best friend growing up is an incredible artist, a painter, who paints still scenes. He finds intriguing areas of buildings - a hallway, an exterior corner etc, takes photos, and paints from the photos, in an almost photo-realistic way. The difference between looking at the original photos and his painting is amazing. The photos look flat and 2 dimensional. The paintings are so vivid it's more like you are peering right in to a hallway, or examining the crust on the side of a barn.

So to the analogy: The photograph he is painting from may be more accurate, and may even contain some level of detail he missed. But the end result of the painting process, even though you can spot the artificiality if you want (brush strokes) feels more vivid, more like the real thing...or just more pleasing.

This is analogous to what I have often perceived when comparing vinyl to my digital music: I can hear the slightly higher accuracy in the digital, and I can note some ways the vinyl departs, but there is a texture and tone to the vinyl which can feel more vivid, more "there" and more "convincing" more "solid" in that aspect, to my brain. (Again...not always....but often enough that I enjoy it).
 

Wunderphones

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Not ridiculous, read the spec's, do the measurements.
Vinyl is not capable of being transparent to the source, CD/digital is.
That's just the facts.
If you hear some "magic", it's either one of two things.
Distortion or sighted (imagined) bias

Well, digital is capable of it when the bit depth and sample rate are sufficient.
 

krabapple

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You forgot the IMO.
I have remasters classical music of vinyl recorded In the 50's.
Example :Beethoven Tahra Furt 2001 1954.The level of accuracy is MAGIC superior to many digital cd.
How you measure the accuracy?

Like this: You measure the commercial product compared to the source. In this case you would need access to the source of whatever "Beethoven Tahra Furt 2001 1954" is.

If you had such access, you would find that a competently made digital copy of it is more accurate than a vinyl pressing of it.*



*Assuming the source has not degraded significantly since the vinyl pressing was made
 

krabapple

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The "transparent to the source" argument is a strawman in many cases. Many older sources were in better shape when pressed to vinyl than later digital transfers. Also few sources are ever transferred directly but rather "mastered" for better or for worse.

When a record company make a digital transfer of the source tape, that is done 'flat' with no mastering. That is for their archive and is the 'source' for digital releases. What you mean is, few sources are ever *commercially released* without there being a further mastering step (adjustments to EQ etc) involved.

Despite the obviously technical limitations of LP's for actual human listening a better source / mastering has more to do with perceived sound quality than the format.

Yes, mastering matters a lot. It can be good or poor on vinyl as well as a digital release.
 

Jaxjax

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I think alot of the appeal of vinyl is knowing which version & picking one of a particular album or track. These things get so fucked with on RE & RM that they all so different from one to another. My streaming service definitely doesn't tell me which version I'm listening too or production credits. My speakers are DSP active so I have conversion no matter what & could care less as it's good but I see the entire analog/digital agument thing completely stupid for what it is, they both sound good & some vinyl definitely IMO smashes digital because of the because the version I'm listening to. I am not searching around,buying CD's which I hate, or trying every streaming service out there to try & find it. I like it all FM, tape, vinyl, digital, etc..
 
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