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Analysis of Paper on Measurements of RCA Cables by Kunchur (Video)

kschmit2

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Theoretically height won't be recorded. For some X-Y configurations it might be sort of. Recordings of music used in testing.......ha, ha, ha, .......almost surely none are a purist recording where there is any sort of remote possibility height info is in the recording.
there may be some comb filtering artefacts that resemble what's happening in the pinna.

Of course you can artificially add height effects even to stereo recordings:

This is what @STC posted on the subject on audiophilestyle:
By embedding the filtering characteristics of the pinna into the audio signal, sound can be moved around the listener's head from a single pair of loudspeakers.
The LEDR test generates pinna-filtered audio that will literally float around your speakers, assuming your sound reproduction system is neutral enough to preserve the original signal characteristics.

@mitchco posted a link to samples on audiophilestyle: https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php (@Sokel beat me by posting this first :D )
 

kschmit2

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Why not? We record the room. And we record where the source is in the room. You have different reflections from the floor at different high. So i would say we record? I mean record a person in a room that walks around and goes up and down in high while singing. You can hear the difference. I mean if you go up and down in high, many akustic things happen.
this paper discusses some some of the reasons: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~robust/Papers/SternWangBrownChapter.pdf
 

tomtoo

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Because while you will hear something different at different heights in the recording they don't translate at all into how our ears hear height. For every accidental modification that might sound a different height are several more that don't or that sound opposite of reality. We hear height based upon modification of FR versus straight ahead hearing. With a microphone setup using two microphones at the same level no such info gets encoded. It is not there to hear. Some odd frequency aberrations might sound like a height difference, but their relationship with reality is random.

Yes and no. If you just would look at the mics at a moment. Or lets say you could not decide from which side a reflection comes. But we have a memory and a brain and this likes to fit known reality in what we hear. So its not random, your brain tries to get a reality from knowledge. Thats why you can fool the brain in a mix.
 

PeteL

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Nope, specifically my question:
OK, quick answer... I think that the goal of this paper was to demonstrate that it is possible to portray height in a "good" stereo reproduction system. Not to assess what stereo system is needed to portray height. It is my reading.
What knowledge does he add that was not known before with this paper?

You totally ignored.
It triggered the creation of this video, which is quite informative.
 

tomtoo

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OK, quick answer... I think that the goal of this paper was to demonstrate that it is possible to portray height in a "good" stereo reproduction system. Not to assess what stereo system is needed to portray height. It is my reading.

It triggered the creation of this video, which is quite informative.

But you can trick a high i would say on any stereo system. Couse its not the stereo system, its the brain that gives you that information.
 

voodooless

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OK, quick answer... I think that the goal of this paper was to demonstrate that it is possible to portray height in a "good" stereo reproduction system. Not to assess what stereo system is needed to portray height. It is my reading.
According to you, that was already known knowledge... And the question was not about the goal, but the actual knowledge you gained that you did not know before. I can have all kinds of noble goals. That doesn't mean any of them would add knowledge to humanity if I foolishly tried to pursue them. With that reasoning, "scientific papers" by flat-earthers would contain valuable knowledge as well.
It triggered the creation of this video, which is quite informative.
You have your causalities mixed up. The video was about a different paper. The one in the video though was referenced in the one that I tried to dissect.
 
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Cars-N-Cans

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there may be some comb filtering artefacts that resemble what's happening in the pinna.

Of course you can artificially add height effects even to stereo recordings:

This is what @STC posted on the subject on audiophilestyle:
By embedding the filtering characteristics of the pinna into the audio signal, sound can be moved around the listener's head from a single pair of loudspeakers.
The LEDR test generates pinna-filtered audio that will literally float around your speakers, assuming your sound reproduction system is neutral enough to preserve the original signal characteristics.
The problem I have run into with such things is that ”double-dipping” on the HRTFs (the artificial ones with one’s own) when using speakers causes quite a lot of distortion. I was messing with Sennheiser’s Ambeo recordings and in some recordings there was a sense of sound originating from behind the listening position (e.g. echos), but everything else was all wrong. Im not near speakers at the moment, but I wonder if they took that into account with the above demo? There is also crosstalk to contend with as well, which will be worse on some systems than others.
 

voodooless

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Suppose one day we can have amps that have sinad of 150 db, do you really think they'll be audibly different? I'd purchase one if it were affordable, but I doubt there is any improvement over sinad of 110 db.
Your still totally missing the point I tried to make... How can I fix that?
 

PeteL

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According to you, that was already known knowledge... And the question was not about the goal, but the actual knowledge you gained that you did not know before. I can have all kinds of noble goals. That doesn't mean any of them would add knowledge to humanity if I foolishly tried to pursue them. With that reasoning, "scientific papers" by flat-earthers would contain valuable knowledge as well.

You have your causalities mixed up. The video was about a different paper. The one in the video though was referenced in the one that I tried to dissect.
Sorry for the mixed up, You said it was an unanswered question and I did not have time to look up the context. I still don't. I think you purposely try this debate to be overly complicated. The goal is the same as what I get trough it. A demonstration by blind testing that height can be portrayed by a stereo system, again nitpicking, the fact that it was known don't mean there is no incentive to demonstrate. I really have to go, we have to agree to disagree. This is redundant.
 

tomtoo

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We should do a experiment.

Let one person sing in a room, walking around, and go up and down.

Record with stereo mics.

Let other note down the movement. While just hearing the recording. Iam sure the most would be absolutly right. Now tell me there is no information about hight in the recording.
 

Blumlein 88

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We should do a experiment.

Let one person sing in a room, walking around, and go up and down.

Record with stereo mics.

Let other note down the movement. While just hearing the recording. Iam sure the most would be absolutly right. Now tell me there is no information about hight in the recording.
I was just thinking that. Might do it in the next few days.
 

Blumlein 88

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Anyone have any Q-sound CD's? Altering things they could place things up high and low and even behind you with only two speakers. Proves it can be done. Doesn't prove that a minimalist recording accurately does such a thing.
 

voodooless

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I think you purposely try this debate to be overly complicated.
It's not complicated at all. You pose that these papers are relevant even if they may be wrong and provide valuable knowledge. I ask: what is that knowledge? And then, no decent answer comes. What Is complicated about that?
The goal is the same as what I get trough it. A demonstration by blind testing that height can be portrayed by a stereo system, again nitpicking,
Nitpicking? Then how can you justify the conclusion? Do you agree with it? Do you agree that his so-called experiment proves you can determine height in sound via a stereo system? From the abstract:
In this work, an audio system was assembled that had sufficient fidelity to achieve 3D spatialization, and it was proven through psychoacoustic testing that elevation differentiation of instrumental images can indeed be perceived
Again: "sufficient fidelity". What is that? How is it linked with 3D spatialization? How can you prove it was the system that made the effect work? Why and how were other factors disregarded?
the fact that it was known don't mean there is no incentive to demonstrate.
Nobody said otherwise. But if you demonstrate, it should be done with care and rigor, not by strawmen.
 

Blumlein 88

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Your still totally missing the point I tried to make... How can I fix that?
Don't know. Not audible is not audible. Performance beyond that is nice, but makes no difference. We don't need SINAD of even 100 db for that.

Rather like channel cross-talk or separation. 30 db is enough with speakers. More is not going to sound different. Maybe with headphones not sure about that. With speakers worrying about only 60 db channel separation vs 100 db or more is a waste of time.
 

Sokel

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The problem I have run into with such things is that ”double-dipping” on the HRTFs (the artificial ones with one’s own) when using speakers causes quite a lot of distortion. I was messing with Sennheiser’s Ambeo recordings and in some recordings there was a sense of sound originating from behind the listening position (e.g. echos), but everything else was all wrong. Im not near speakers at the moment, but I wonder if they took that into account with the above demo? There is also crosstalk to contend with as well, which will be worse on some systems than others.
I can assure you,works as a charm,tested it in more than 5 systems.Along with REW let's you correct a lot of things but in the process you have to decide what matters,that's the compromises audio has as far as I have understand.
But the above is literally what you hear,your everyday,so has it's value.
 

voodooless

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Don't know. Not audible is not audible. Performance beyond that is nice, but makes no difference. We don't need SINAD of even 100 db for that.
Yes, I did not say otherwise. Maybe reread #324.
 

tomtoo

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I was just thinking that. Might do it in the next few days.

From a mathematical point of view there there maybe no differences from side walls, floors, and ceiling its symmetry regarding reflections. But not for our brain. It usually knows where is floor and ceiling and side walls from experience.
 

tomtoo

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I'm not volunteering for the singing, since otherwise I'm not the only one running around a room screaming :eek:

More easy would be talking:

I go now left, now right, now iam on my knees in the corner, ;)

If your neigbours unhappy with your singing start crowling, ;)

Would be interesting if its more hard to locate a crowler, or a soprano singer?

Hehe importend sience imagine you like to hide from zombies. Than its maybe better to crowl then sing soprano. Who knows, ;)
 
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