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AMD Ryzen 7000 Series Discussion (With X670E Charts)

Digby

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In terms of NVMe SSDs, value. You can buy a PCIe 4.0 NVMe for a bit more than a PCIe 3.0 drive. In terms of my PC, it does what I need but I'm not a big fan of how I setup it. My PC is essentially a NAS and a gaming PC shoved together. I essentially want to start fresh in a way, build a new high airflow gaming-focused PC while using this current PC as a "Windows NAS". I did have a low-spec idea in-min, buy a modern Ryzen 3/Intel i3 that matches my i7 6700's performance and ride for a few years or buy a modern Ryzen 7/Intel i7 that'll last me 5+ years again, of course both options would have the highest chipset motherboard.
Personally, I find it better to think about what it is you're trying to achieve, rather than whether something is the latest tech.

Why is having a combination NAS/gaming PC a bad thing? For me, it would be because I don't want HDD noise near me, is this a problem for you? How many TB of data do you need access to, does this NAS need a PC or can it be done from something more simple, perhaps even a router? I wouldn't buy a new PC, low spec or not, for NAS as this is not particularly taxing, your current PC should cope fine. Why is a high airflow case good? Yes, you get somewhat lower temps, but also big old furballs that need cleaning out. I prefer cases with removeable filters and fewer dust bunnies.

As someone mentioned upthread, NVMe performance probably won't be noticeable compared to SSD unless you are moving/manipulating huge files (raw video editing). Are you doing this? They seem to make no real difference in gaming or 98% of applications. Why spend on this technology for no tangible benefit?

Make a list of what you want to achieve, then possible solutions and then narrow the best ones regarding price & performance.
 

Berwhale

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Personally, I find it better to think about what it is you're trying to achieve, rather than whether something is the latest tech.

Definitely.

NVMe performance probably won't be noticeable compared to SSD unless you are moving/manipulating huge files (raw video editing)

I think the jump from SATA SSD to NVMe is certainly noticeable in terms of boot time and probably in general OS responsiveness. I'm not so convinced the jump from PCIe 3.0 to 4.0 NVMe offers quite the same 'bang for buck'.

Make a list of what you want to achieve, then possible solutions and then narrow the best ones regarding price & performance.

Sound advice. There's a 'sweet spot' when considering price/performance and it rarely lies with the 'latest and greatest' tech.
 
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ThatM1key

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Personally, I find it better to think about what it is you're trying to achieve, rather than whether something is the latest tech.

Why is having a combination NAS/gaming PC a bad thing? For me, it would be because I don't want HDD noise near me, is this a problem for you? How many TB of data do you need access to, does this NAS need a PC or can it be done from something more simple, perhaps even a router? I wouldn't buy a new PC, low spec or not, for NAS as this is not particularly taxing, your current PC should cope fine. Why is a high airflow case good? Yes, you get somewhat lower temps, but also big old furballs that need cleaning out. I prefer cases with removeable filters and fewer dust bunnies.
2 main reasons currently would be a wasted x8 slot and bad airflow. My case (Rosewill Thor V2) has 8 inch fans but the temps were the same when I had no fans installed before, so its terrible airflow. In terms of NAS'ing, I was gonna do the old "Connect 2 PCs together via ethernet method" because I don't access my data from other devices on my main network. Also with the NAS'ing, my x8 slot currently has a x2 SATA card (to bypass the chipset) and let my chipset-connected M.2 and SATA SSDs reach there speeds. At the end of the day, I prefer to use my hard drives when I need to then to have them idling in this cluster of a PC.

As someone mentioned upthread, NVMe performance probably won't be noticeable compared to SSD unless you are moving/manipulating huge files (raw video editing). Are you doing this? They seem to make no real difference in gaming or 98% of applications. Why spend on this technology for no tangible benefit?
I do this sometimes already. I transfer from PCIe 3.0 NVMe to my RAID-0 2x SATA SSDs. With music (especially big FLAC playlists) it loads faster and track skipping is a lot more snappier. Even if (currently) people can't tell the difference from a NVMe and SATA SSD, there is still a value problem since PCIe 3.0 NVMe drives generally cost the same or a bit more then a SATA SSD.
 

pseudoid

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I've been meaning to rebuild a new Intel rig for awhile.
First time I got motivated enough, Z490 was on the horizon, I told myself to hold-off. Then, it was the Z590, and then the AlderLake (12th gen Z690) were introduced.
I was still on a holding pattern because the motherboard (Dual NIC Z690s: ASRockAqua, AsusROGMaximusE, MSI-Meg, GBAero or AorusX) all would have exceeded $1500 (MoBo+RAM+M2) and the chip (memory/cpu) prices were thru the roof blamed on something called #$%@ covid.

You (@ThatF1key) got me motivated again to look up what is next on the horizon. TomsHardware is speculating about:
Intel 13th-Gen Raptor Lake Series at a Glance
Codename Raptor Lake
Desktop and mobile launch in Q4 2022 (October)
Up to 24 cores and 32 threads on 'Intel 7' process node
Up to 8 Raptor Cove Performance cores (P-Cores) and 16 Gracemont Efficiency cores (E-Cores)
Raptor Lake-S (65W to 125W desktop) and Raptor Lake-P (15 to 45W mobile) confirmed
Rumored 5.8 GHz boost
Up to 36MB of L3 Cache (20% increase), up to 32MB L2 (2.3x increase)
Dual-Channel DDR4-3200 and DDR5-5600 memory support, x16 PCIe 5.0 and x4 PCIe 4.0 interface, Thunderbolt 4 / USB 4
Support for PCIe 5.0 M.2 SSDs, support for AI M.2 Module
"Up to double-digit performance boost"
Socket LGA 1700, Raptor Lake backward compatible with existing coolers, mobile chips are BGA compatible
700-Series Chipset:
Z790, H770, B760 Motherboards
Chipset: Up to 20 PCH PCIe 4.0 and eight PCIe 3.0

Enhanced CPU overclocking features, including per-core and Efficient Thermal Velocity Boost

From <https://www.tomshardware.com/news/i...ications-pricing-benchmarks-all-we-know-specs>

I am targeting my DIY (Z790-based) by April 2023.
How about you?
 
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ThatM1key

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I've been meaning to rebuild a new Intel rig for awhile.
First time I got motivated enough, Z490 was on the horizon, I told myself to hold-off. Then, it was the Z590, and then the AlderLake (12th gen Z690) were introduced.
I was still on a holding pattern because the motherboard (Dual NIC Z690s: ASRockAqua, AsusROGMaximusE, MSI-Meg, GBAero or AorusX) all would have exceeded $1500 (MoBo+RAM+M2) and the chip (memory/cpu) prices were thru the roof blamed on something called #$%@ covid).

You (@ThatF1key) got me motivated again to look up what is next on the horizon. TomsHardware is speculating about:
Intel 13th-Gen Raptor Lake Series at a Glance
  • Codename Raptor Lake
  • Desktop and mobile launch in Q4 2022 (October)
  • Up to 24 cores and 32 threads on 'Intel 7' process node
  • Up to 8 Raptor Cove Performance cores (P-Cores) and 16 Gracemont Efficiency cores (E-Cores)
  • Raptor Lake-S (65W to 125W desktop) and Raptor Lake-P (15 to 45W mobile) confirmed
  • Rumored 5.8 GHz boost
  • Up to 36MB of L3 Cache (20% increase), up to 32MB L2 (2.3x increase)
  • Dual-Channel DDR4-3200 and DDR5-5600 memory support, x16 PCIe 5.0 and x4 PCIe 4.0 interface, Thunderbolt 4 / USB 4
  • Support for PCIe 5.0 M.2 SSDs, support for AI M.2 Module
  • "Up to double-digit performance boost"
  • Socket LGA 1700, Raptor Lake backward compatible with existing coolers, mobile chips are BGA compatible
  • 700-Series Chipset: Z790, H770, B760 Motherboards
  • Chipset: Up to 20 PCH PCIe 4.0 and eight PCIe 3.0
  • Enhanced CPU overclocking features, including per-core and Efficient Thermal Velocity Boost
From <https://www.tomshardware.com/news/i...ications-pricing-benchmarks-all-we-know-specs>

I am targeting my DIY by April 2023.
How about you?
I'm probably going go with AMD's X570E for the PCIe 5.0 bifurcation. I would go with Z790 but there is rumors of the CPU-linked M.2 slot being PCIe 4.0 still and probably having no bifurcation support. Heck Z790 might still have that socket issue like Z690, but hey this is just all speculation, and I could be wrong.
 

AlexanderM

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I hope to put together a Ryzen 9 system in the not too distant future, either 550 or 570 motherboard, with nvidia 3060 and go Linux but haven't got into the particulars yet.
 

Prana Ferox

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I've gone back and forth between AMD and Intel through the years. I've got several running around the house; my main gaming box is still an i7-7700k because I've been too lazy to move off it, my compute box (which was supposed to replace the gaming box) is a Ryzen 5700G, which I might upgrade to a 5900x for a little more long-term purpose.

Lately I've been turned off Intel on the high end as the hardware simply runs too hot for its performance level relative to AMD. I'm curious where that goes but at first glance it seems like 13th Gen might be worse than 12th. I'd rather not need to build another custom water loop to accommodate a modern CPU/GPU combo in a small and quiet platform.

The really high number of planned AMD chipset variants and the inevitable zillion SKUs confuses me and I'm in no rush to jump in there either.

@ThatM1key if what you're doing really requires that kind of SSD bandwidth, have you looked at workstation platforms? Bifurcation is getting to asking pretty advanced things of a gaming computer. The AMD ones are nice there because they have a bazillion PCI lanes and quite possibly expose them in ways (like OcuLink ports) that might keep you from needing an add-in card in the first place.
 

Astrozombie

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I find it interesting how Intel is going with different types of cores in their newer CPUs. The thing is if you move to the newer AMD chip you would also need to upgrade to DDR5 so IDK.......
 
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ThatM1key

ThatM1key

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I've gone back and forth between AMD and Intel through the years. I've got several running around the house; my main gaming box is still an i7-7700k because I've been too lazy to move off it, my compute box (which was supposed to replace the gaming box) is a Ryzen 5700G, which I might upgrade to a 5900x for a little more long-term purpose.

Lately I've been turned off Intel on the high end as the hardware simply runs too hot for its performance level relative to AMD. I'm curious where that goes but at first glance it seems like 13th Gen might be worse than 12th. I'd rather not need to build another custom water loop to accommodate a modern CPU/GPU combo in a small and quiet platform.

The really high number of planned AMD chipset variants and the inevitable zillion SKUs confuses me and I'm in no rush to jump in there either.

@ThatM1key if what you're doing really requires that kind of SSD bandwidth, have you looked at workstation platforms? Bifurcation is getting to asking pretty advanced things of a gaming computer. The AMD ones are nice there because they have a bazillion PCI lanes and quite possibly expose them in ways (like OcuLink ports) that might keep you from needing an add-in card in the first place.
Bifurcation is not too advanced for normal motherboards. I don't like how modern cards don't take advantage of x16. Workstation platforms is just too overkill and expensive for me.

Edit: RTX 3080 PCIe scaling
Screenshot_20220828-190343_(1).png
 
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ThatM1key

ThatM1key

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dlaloum

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So what am I running...

I run a Win2019 HyperV server, on which one VM is my main fileserver... the main host also acts as a NAS storing my Music and Video (6 drive double parity HD's, 3 drive Cache acceleration) - CPU is AMD 2400G, Motherboard is X570, 64Gb RAM. - The server sometimes gets a bit slow when I run additional VM's to experiment with various things - would run better with a CPU having more cores (4700g/5700g?)

My main home PC, is a DIY HTPC, using a HDPLEX H5 heatsink case, B550 m/board, with Ryzen 4750G CPU... I have the CPU slightly constrained, to keep its TDP below 80W - the case can handle a GPU with passive cooling as well, but I am still working through the complexities of doing that. (it is fitted with 16Gb RAM) - so this one is completely silent, no fans - sits in the main stereo/HT setup, and is my primary source component.

What do I need, and how much performance is needed - well, based on visual acuity, screen watching distance in my lounge/HT, etc... 1080p is all that is required - 4k gains me nothing, while making the CPU and GPU work harder! - HDR is potentially a gain, although I have yet to enable it - I have very little wide gamut material or streaming, and what I have seen, didn't look any different in my setup, with my room constraints. (bright room, large floor to ceiling glass lots of sun!)
I need it to support all my video and audio formats (easy!)

So my thinking in terms of upgrades....
1) Upgrade the CPU in the HTPC, while keeping it to a 65W TDP - move from the 4750G to perhaps a 5700(X)
2) Upgrade the HTPC GPU to an RX6600 - which can be passively cooled by the case heatsink - requires a bit of undervolt and underclock - but no more than the same chipset in the configuration used for laptops! - need to limit it to around 80W.
3) Trickle down the 4750G to the server - doubling its core's - should allow it to run more smoothly

That makes best use of my existing hardware, boosts performance and extends lifetime of each platform ...

Ryzen 7000 - yes, interesting - but what do I gain? - the TDP as proposed at present rises from the existing models at 65W, to new models at 105W - this is starting to push the cases heatsink abilities - and for what? - at the resolutions I run, I can achieve 60FPS+ on the games that I play (mostly older and mostly strategy) - with the addition of an external GPU, I should be able to raise the performance to where it can handle more demanding, modern games at higher FPS - as long as I keep to 1080p.... which with my 65" screen, and 2.5m viewing distance, is the highest resolution that provides me with any resolution gains. - going to 4K provides no visible improvement (unless I move 1m closer to the screen)

So yeah - at this stage, there is no gain - performance of the SSD's and HD's in my systems are adequate to my requirements, and a long long way from being a bottleneck - I feel I can "sweat" my platforms for another CPU Generation or 2.
My old HTPC still works (Phenom X6 1065T, 16gb DDR2 RAM) - but something is wrong with its GPU - which is running really nasty hot - it has been my backup system (always nice to have a backup) - I semi-retired it, in my (successful) efforts to make a silent fanless PC - but if it weren't for that GPU fault, it is still perfectly capable of running all the software I use. (no it does not support Win11.... so it is truly reaching EOL)

Right now, I really don't see a place for a Ryzen 7000.... overkill, it would gain me nothing, and would require new M/B's and new RAM - I can wait another couple of Generations.
 

Prana Ferox

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Bifurcation is not too advanced for normal motherboards. I don't like how modern cards don't take advantage of x16. Workstation platforms is just too overkill and expensive for me.

Edit: RTX 3080 PCIe scaling

Another way of phrasing what those charts tell you is that PCIE 4 and PCIE 5 are largely datacenter techs at this point and that home users are only along for the ride. Relatively easily compressible graphics textures simply don't require the bandwidth to be significant bottlenecks for gaming. You'll see similar numbers for storage; a single home user doesn't keep an NVME SSD taxed for long enough for performance differences to matter much. On the other hand if you're transitioning networking from 25GbE to 100GbE and beyond, you need the faster lanes.

The killer app this generation was high-res raytracing and maybe it was worth it and maybe not, eventually there will be a killer app for the home that will need that higher level of hardware (my bet is on high-end VR)
 

dlaloum

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Another way of phrasing what those charts tell you is that PCIE 4 and PCIE 5 are largely datacenter techs at this point and that home users are only along for the ride. Relatively easily compressible graphics textures simply don't require the bandwidth to be significant bottlenecks for gaming. You'll see similar numbers for storage; a single home user doesn't keep an NVME SSD taxed for long enough for performance differences to matter much. On the other hand if you're transitioning networking from 25GbE to 100GbE and beyond, you need the faster lanes.

The killer app this generation was high-res raytracing and maybe it was worth it and maybe not, eventually there will be a killer app for the home that will need that higher level of hardware (my bet is on high-end VR)
Current generation hardware is huge overkill for anything done at lounge room viewing distances...

At desk viewing distances it becomes more critical - but even then I'm pretty sure we don't need more than 4K resolution.

Real time high FPS ray tracing is not yet a reality - when the GPU's capable of doing that kind of processing become mainstream affordable, then we will start to see consumer requirements for motherboards and CPU's to match.

We are at least 3 or 4 GPU generations away from that, if not more...
 

valerianf

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Always look at the end application : the computer is only a tool.
What is the computer power needed for?
For now no graphic card is saturating 16x lines of Pcie 4.
And the new video card have so much embedded video ram that all the fast calculations do not got out of the video board.
Then there is the nvme ssd.
What application needs a ssd using Pcie 5?
Let us go to the power supply.
Existing configuration needs a 1kw power supply, next generation (Zen4+Radeon 7000) will need a 1.2kw power supply.
What a joke!

I am ready to stay with an AM4 socket, Pcie4, Radeon 6700 for a very long time: it is already overkilling for my needs.
The only thing that will make me change is if one day there is a more power efficient platform (I hate the fan noise).
Is not noise damaging for the music listening experience?
 

dlaloum

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Always look at the end application : the computer is only a tool.
What is the computer power needed for?
For now no graphic card is saturating 16x lines of Pcie 4.
And the new video card have so much embedded video ram that all the fast calculations do not got out of the video board.
Then there is the nvme ssd.
What application needs a ssd using Pcie 5?
Let us go to the power supply.
Existing configuration needs a 1kw power supply, next generation (Zen4+Radeon 7000) will need a 1.2kw power supply.
What a joke!

I am ready to stay with an AM4 socket, Pcie4, Radeon 6700 for a very long time: it is already overkilling for my needs.
The only thing that will make me change is if one day there is a more power efficient platform (I hate the fan noise).
Is not noise damaging for the music listening experience?
I did the same analysis - decided AM4 8 core with RDNA graphics and 65W TDP - was perfectly capable of being run in a heatsink case with no fans, and providing ample performance...

Not a huge choice of cases that meet this requirement - but several good ones nevertheless!

No Fans, no noise!!!!!
 

Digby

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I think the jump from SATA SSD to NVMe is certainly noticeable in terms of boot time and probably in general OS responsiveness. I'm not so convinced the jump from PCIe 3.0 to 4.0 NVMe offers quite the same 'bang for buck'.
How noticeable is this, as in seconds gained? I haven't paid much attention for the last 3 or so years, so I am out of the loop somewhat.

No Fans, no noise!!!!!
Right, but it is worth saying that no fans = HUGE heatsink, usually the entire case is a heatsink. Fans have come a long way with regards to noise, even in the last 5 years or so. 1 or 2 decent fans spinning at 500-800rpm will be inaudible in a cabin in the woods from 50cm away, and will remove the need for huge and expensive heatsinks. Moving even small amounts of air is far more efficient than having huge lumps of metal radiate heat and have convection take it away.

Fans these days don't make much noise below around 1000rpm, hard drives are generally noisier (particularly vibration noise) and the noise is more obtrusive, such as resonance from vibrating case panels, even soft mounting doesn't fully eliminate this.
 

dlaloum

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How noticeable is this, as in seconds gained? I haven't paid much attention for the last 3 or so years, so I am out of the loop somewhat.


Right, but it is worth saying that no fans = HUGE heatsink, usually the entire case is a heatsink. Fans have come a long way with regards to noise, even in the last 5 years or so. 1 or 2 decent fans spinning at 500-800rpm will be inaudible in a cabin in the woods from 50cm away, and will remove the need for huge and expensive heatsinks. Moving even small amounts of air is far more efficient than having huge lumps of metal radiate heat and have convection take it away.

Fans these days don't make much noise below around 1000rpm, hard drives are generally noisier (particularly vibration noise) and the noise is more obtrusive, such as resonance from vibrating case panels, even soft mounting doesn't fully eliminate this.
HDPLEX.H5.Fanless.PC.Case-min.jpg

Mine is black...

or


51gnXJvWCEL._AC_SL1200_.jpg


There are other shapes, and some funky ones out there - but these are the best basic "Audio" device shapes - slots in unobtrusively among the other components... as long as you have appropriate passive ventilation or an open rack...
 

Digby

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They're certainly far more attractive than a typical PC case, do you undervolt the CPU or do any other tricks to reduce temps or is it cool enough as is. Which motherboard form factor do they take, Mini-ITX or something smaller still?
 

dlaloum

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They're certainly far more attractive than a typical PC case, do you undervolt the CPU or do any other tricks to reduce temps or is it cool enough as is. Which motherboard form factor do they take, Mini-ITX or something smaller still?
The H5 (the top one, which I have) can take a full ATX or Mini / micro / ITX - smaller motherboards, leave more interior space for other components.

I run a MicroATX, leaving room for Multiple SSD's and an internal fanless 400W PSU.

Best to choose a motherboard with decent VRM and Chipset heatsinks - as there will be no fans.

The side heatsinks can theoretically dissipate 95W per side - having set up the heatpipes etc... I found that the CPU was throttling at around 80W

I am using an AMD Ryzen 4750G with onboard GPU - it's theoretical TDP is 65W - but in reality it can suck up quite a bit more - I do tend to try to undervolt/underclock slightly - to keep it within a 75W max.

However I have only ever pushed it to throttling when running graphical benchmarking software - in actual use, the case keeps it plenty cool.

With an optional horizontal PCI extension kit, you can fit a graphics card, and use the heatsink on the other side of the case for the GPU - that DEFINITELY requires undervolting and underclocking... it isn't worth doing with anything lower powered than an RX6600 (the built in APU/GPU is almost as powerful as an RX6500!) - and RX6700+ use too much power and generate too much heat. (still that theoretical 95W limit, but in reality probably limiting to 75W is best)
Also fitting the copper GPU heatsink/heatpipe mount can be a challenge.... I am currently working on that.

It has been working very well for circa 18 months now - handling gaming, streaming, audio, MS-Office, email etc... Gaming is what pushes it the most - but for the games I and my family use, it has handled 1080p very well.
 
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