ATC speakers / Monitors

[BDWoody]

Linn has in my opinion made another giant step in soundquality with the new Klimax DS hub with only digital outputs, this transport converts every nonbeliever with just listening to a single chord in the beginning of a song

Uh huh.

 

[Tangband]

View attachment 226890

Jeez, woudln't expect that we see the "source is most important" marketing nonsense of Linn in this section...

Every chain in the hifi system is important , sometimes the source or amplifiers have a big impact of the sound. This is not rocket-science.

 

[Pearljam5000]

SCM50 and Genelec 8361
Both are 10 inch active 3-way monitors so performance should be similar
Which would you choose and why?

 

[thewas]

Every chain in the hifi system is important , sometimes the source or amplifiers have a big impact of the sound. This is not rocket-science.

Nope, decent electronics and digital sources which are transparent (i.e. have no audible differences) are trivial to make since decades. The differences in loudspeakers, room acoustics and analogue sources are the ones where by orders of magnitudes flaws can happen and where most efforts should be concentrated to.

 

[Tangband]

SCM50 and Genelec 8361
Both are 10 inch active 3-way monitors so performance should be similar
Which would you choose and why?

View attachment 226905View attachment 226904

I would listen to them at home with a really good source ( digital input for 8361) and buy the one that brings most enjoyment.

 

[DSJR]

Jeez, woudln't expect that we see the "source is most important" marketing nonsense of Linn in this section...

In a vinyl based system, the importance of the source was once easily proved in demonstration (even using a CD as a reference!). These days, the edges are blurred as top grade inexpensive pickups have come along which are fairly universal (I cite the AT VM95 ML and SH as great cheap examples and I've a soft spot for the now pricey Ortofon Super OM20, the stylus from this upgrading many a cheap Dual or Project deck) and which may not be as tonearm-platform sensitive as of old. No need at all for a hideous money oil-rig confection, but a carefully sited £1k Rega or Technics with a VM95SH would make a fine universal vinyl source for any grade of speaker I think and rather better made (hopefully) than the cheap decks all in under £/$500.

Where DIGITAL is concerned, the hierarchy idea was upended decades ago really once the speakers and customer interest finally turned away from a toppy speaker balancing out a dull rounded-tone source.. I was stunned not that long ago when I was given a Philips 371? plastic CD player from the mid to late 80's or thereabouts and how basically good it sounded, if a little 'safe' and 'nice' perhaps.

I'm sure that Linn system is impressive, but they're still in the dark ages of buying a ton of expensive external boxes to drive the speakers and if that new dac system of theirs 'sounds better,' what the dickens (I'm trying to be more polite) is it doing to the raw digital source fed it?

Having said the above, where the ATC's I've owned in the past were NOT kind to compression in a recording production, they didn't sound bad at all with vinyl, just a bit 'smaller' and constricted in scale generally.

 

[BDWoody]

Every chain in the hifi system is important , sometimes the source or amplifiers have a big impact of the sound. This is not rocket-science.

Sure, if they aren't fundamentally competent. Any evidence for these claims of one streamer vs another?

No? Didn't think so.

 

[Tangband]

In a vinyl based system, the importance of the source was once easily proved in demonstration (even using a CD as a reference!). These days, the edges are blurred as top grade inexpensive pickups have come along which are fairly universal (I cite the AT VM95 ML and SH as great cheap examples and I've a soft spot for the now pricey Ortofon Super OM20, the stylus from this upgrading many a cheap Dual or Project deck) and which may not be as tonearm-platform sensitive as of old. No need at all for a hideous money oil-rig confection, but a carefully sited £1k Rega or Technics with a VM95SH would make a fine universal vinyl source for any grade of speaker I think and rather better made (hopefully) than the cheap decks all in under £/$500.

Where DIGITAL is concerned, the hierarchy idea was upended decades ago really once the speakers and customer interest finally turned away from a toppy speaker balancing out a dull rounded-tone source.. I was stunned not that long ago when I was given a Philips 371? plastic CD player from the mid to late 80's or thereabouts and how basically good it sounded, if a little 'safe' and 'nice' perhaps.

I'm sure that Linn system is impressive, but they're still in the dark ages of buying a ton of expensive external boxes to drive the speakers and if that new dac system of theirs 'sounds better,' what the dickens (I'm trying to be more polite) is it doing to the raw digital source fed it?

Having said the above, where the ATC's I've owned in the past were NOT kind to compression in a recording production, they didn't sound bad at all with vinyl, just a bit 'smaller' and constricted in scale generally.

Nice to hear about AT 95 as a very good upgrade for many record players. My first and second turnable ( Rega planar 3 and Linn lp12/Ittok ) had this cheap pickup and the sound was awesome, - butchering the sound of every -80 cdplayer we compared it with. I eventually upgraded to a Lingo motor supply and a Linn K18 with some further improvements.

Didnt you like it when Linn came out with their Karik/Numerik cd-player, adressing the spdif soundproblems with a sync cable at 1991 ? They were way before their time. The same happened with their streamers, a -09 model can be updated and used even today. .

Ofcourse its sad that their prices has sky-rocked. But buying some of the secondhand linnies can be bargains.
Edit: I dont own any Linn gear anymore - a Mac computer with a good DDC and Apple lossless is a very good digital source, almost as good as a Akurate DS, and much better than a Yamaha wxc50 or bluesound node.

 

[goat76]

I'm sure that Linn system is impressive, but they're still in the dark ages of buying a ton of expensive external boxes to drive the speakers and if that new dac system of theirs 'sounds better,' what the dickens (I'm trying to be more polite) is it doing to the raw digital source fed it?

External boxes is in the past for Linn, everything is built into the speakers and the only external is the source/pre.

It seems you are talking about their previous active systems?

 

[Tangband]

External boxes is in the past for Linn, everything is built into the speakers and the only external is the source/pre.

It seems you are talking about their previous active systems?

This is correct and true for the last systems they make.
My guess is that because of Linn being so much in front of the future - other high end companies will eventually make everything inside their loudspeakers, just like Kef ls60w.

Another thing I believe Linn is before their time, is with their multiway active loudspeakers without waveguides. This will be the future lowering IMD distortion with real music .

 

[goat76]

This is correct and true for the last systems they make.
My guess is that because of Linn being so much in front of the future - other high end companies will eventually make everything inside their loudspeakers, just like Kef ls60w.

Another thing I believe Linn is before their time, is with their multiway active loudspeakers without waveguides. This will be the future lowering IMD distortion with real music .

I think Linn has done this since 2013. People seems to think KEF and Dutch & Dutch are the ones on the “high-tech” frontline.

 

[DSJR]

Nice to hear about AT 95 as a very good upgrade for many record players. My first and second turnable ( Rega planar 3 and Linn lp12/Ittok ) had this cheap pickup and the sound was awesome, - butchering the sound of every -80 cdplayer we compared it with. I eventually upgraded to a Lingo motor supply and a Linn K18 with some further improvements.

Didnt you like it when Linn came out with their Karik/Numerik cd-player, adressing the soundproblems depending on bad spdif transfers at 1991 ? They were way before their time. The same happened with their streamers, a -09 model can be updated and used even today. .

Ofcourse its sad that their prices has sky-rocked. But buying some of the secondhand linnies can be bargains.
Edit: I dont own any Linn gear anymore - a Mac computer with a good DDC and Apple lossless is a very good digital source, almost as good as a Akurate DS, and much better than a Yamaha wxc50 or bluesound node.

Apologies for going off topic...

Karik was hobbled and needed the Numerik to be full standard. Linn got the impedances wrong although the two boxes matched each other which is more than can be said for the Meridian 600 two box player of the time (Paul Miller tests).

I think we're getting dangerously close to sighted listening here as regards dac performance, Linn or otherwise. Linn's top boxes are very nicely milled out but again, l feel it's wasteful (had I plenty of money to consider buying back into the brand I may feel differently here). I'm certain I could place the £23 Fiio Taishan dac with 5V wallwart supply behind a stack of bypassed Linn digital stuff and you'd not notice (I'd love to do this for real )

Looking at all these different pro monitor speakers and suggesting home use, I honestly believe appearance is very important. The 'Classic' ATC's in veneered boxes with grilles fit in to a domestic environment as well as most domestic boxes do, but you'd need an understanding partner to use the grill-less admittedly cheaper Pro alternatives from ATC and other makes. Some partners wouldn't mind, but mine's fussy...

 

[Tangband]

Apologies for going off topic...

Karik was hobbled and needed the Numerik to be full standard. Linn got the impedances wrong although the two boxes matched each other which is more than can be said for the Meridian 600 two box player of the time (Paul Miller tests).

I think we're getting dangerously close to sighted listening here as regards dac performance, Linn or otherwise. Linn's top boxes are very nicely milled out but again, l feel it's wasteful (had I plenty of money to consider buying back into the brand I may feel differently here). I'm certain I could place the £23 Fiio Taishan dac with 5V wallwart supply behind a stack of bypassed Linn digital stuff and you'd not notice (I'd love to do this for real )

Looking at all these different pro monitor speakers and suggesting home use, I honestly believe appearance is very important. The 'Classic' ATC's in veneered boxes with grilles fit in to a domestic environment as well as most domestic boxes do, but you'd need an understanding partner to use the grill-less admittedly cheaper Pro alternatives from ATC and other makes. Some partners wouldn't mind, but mine's fussy...

I would say ever since about 1990, there is usually small sound differences between external dacs. There is, in my opinion , often bigger differences between digital transports feeding the dac , and a bad digital transport can hide differences between different dacs, where they in such cases will sound less good, and at the same time giving the false impression that all digital gear sound exactly the same - especially when doing comparisons.

I have read about this Fiio Taishan dac , there are over 2000 listening reviews on Amazon and it seems to be very good regardless of price and probably better sounding than a Yamaha wxc50 dac. Thanks for this info.

Now back to ATC …

 

[DSJR]

One more observation which bridges this discussion with the main ATC one... Some makers finalise a design and throughout its life, only change things if they absolutely have to (board layouts for different size components which today, may be standardised better). Other companies seem to chop and change, tweaking away to get good reviews and board designs visibly changing (not just the label) almost with every batch. Best not name companies here except to say that if I bought an ATC active pair, I'd pretty much know what I was getting over the last twenty years or so (OK, it can work against them, but they're a tried and largely trusted brand with some consistency away from fickle audiophiles who think they know rather more than they actually do). Had I been able to keep my mid 1993 pair, I could have the SL bass drivers and latest tweeters fitted, together with an amp-pack service if needed (they had the SL bass drivers with port alteration after I sold them) and if I took the entire speakers down to the factory, they'd be re-measured and compared to how they were when new (they kept test records of every pair made and may still do that). I've seen some electronics go through THREE main board changes in the space of a year, each with different layout and one company rep used to visit every six months urging the dem stock to be turned round and replaced because it was out of date (absolutely true!). I suspect Neumann are similar in regards to NOT changing for the sake of it as the current models don't seem so far removed from the K&H ancestors and maybe Genelec the same as they seem to evolve their designs rather than radically change them as the years pass.

P.S and off topic -
I chose the Taishan, bought from Amazon UK because it was measured in a thread here and did basically pretty good, while not giving Topping or SMSL and so on any headaches.. Sits down the back in the second system and works fine for my needs.

 

[FeddyLost]

Once said monitors were un-serviceable, what did Castle replace them with?

It's a extreme example of a customer service level "f### off, losers".
Unbelievable.

When I thought about buying second hand ATC, I've called them and asked about service. They said they can offer full service for any speaker they made but it's only my choice if it's economically reasonable.

Almost the same with PSI.

 

[YSC]

It's a extreme example of a customer service level "f### off, losers".
Unbelievable.

When I thought about buying second hand ATC, I've called them and asked about service. They said they can offer full service for any speaker they made but it's only my choice if it's economically reasonable.

Almost the same with PSI.

That side is mostly just manufacturer policy. Asked genelec and they are still repairing the speakers over 30 years ago without problem. Buchardt mentioned their A300
Backplate is design that if it goes bad, user can get a new plate amp from them and easily self fix or upgrade it, and it can fix their speakers as long as drivers are available

 

[dfuller]

That side is mostly just manufacturer policy. Asked genelec and they are still repairing the speakers over 30 years ago without problem. Buchardt mentioned their A300
Backplate is design that if it goes bad, user can get a new plate amp from them and easily self fix or upgrade it, and it can fix their speakers as long as drivers are available

Genelec and ATC are similarly good about long term product support, generally speaking. You have to be in the pro space.

 

[thewas]

In a vinyl based system, the importance of the source was once easily proved in demonstration (even using a CD as a reference!).

That's why I had written:

Nope, decent electronics and digital sources which are transparent (i.e. have no audible differences) are trivial to make since decades. The differences in loudspeakers, room acoustics and analogue sources are the ones where by orders of magnitudes flaws can happen and where most efforts should be concentrated to.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Does anyone know what's this on the driver?

 

[dfuller]

No idea, I don't know anything about ATC's sub drivers.