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Speaker distortion vs Preamp-Amp-DAC-distortion

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Good morning/afternoon to you all.

My name is JJ and I just joined less than a week ago, and although I’ve had some pretty candid conversations with Amir in the past I made a profile, in hopes of furthering my audio knowledge.

I have a pretty good grasp of the electronics side of our signal chain, although I’m not technical, and don’t know the equations, I basically get it when it’s explained to me.

One thing I haven’t been able to grasp is speaker distortion, and I think that’s mainly because it’s a different set of parameters while measuring, and the info I have seen is all over the place.

Leaving the room out of it, (if possible) can someone help me to understand speaker distortions in layman's terms?

Are the two distortions compounded together, our signal chain before the speakers and the speakers themselves… or Is that not relevant and do we have to talk about them singularly? Simply put, does one have anything to do with the other?

Is it basically irrelevant because of how they interact with our room?

Lastly… why don’t speaker manufacturers talk about distortion in their speakers? It would seem to me that if they had a speaker measuring device like our host does, or access to an anechoic chamber it would be fairly easy to do.

I will say the speaker measurements by @amirm are enlightening to say the least, and speakers that I expected to measure better in some cases do not, and ones that I don’t expect to measure well actually do.
 

FeddyLost

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why don’t speaker manufacturers talk about distortion in their speakers?
Because typical customer don't need perfectly measured speakers and seller need to sell his possibly crap. )))
Some exclusions are studio monitors and ultra high end.
You can think about home entertainment speakers like about TV: how often do you see correct colours from TV without calibration?
 

dshreter

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Yes, the two distortions of the electronics chain and then the speakers are compounded. The distortion is quite different between the two really....

Electronics when used in their typical operating range have a highly linear response - - the response is comparable across the frequency range. For example, you would never expect an amplifier to have a strong resonance at 300 Hz as an arbitrary example. Electronics have can still have harmonic and non-harmonic distortion and they are the main attributes that are looked at.

Speakers on the other hand have very high non-linearities in frequency response in addition to distortion. The linearity of frequency response is typically what is focused upon. Interestingly irregularities in frequency response are often a result of harmonic distortion, so the concepts are interrelated, but that's a different discussion. But speaker response is very far from linear.
 
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Because typical customer don't need perfectly measured speakers and seller need to sell his possibly crap. )))
Some exclusions are studio monitors and ultra high end.
You can think about home entertainment speakers like about TV: how often do you see correct colours from TV without calibration?
I understand what you’re saying, and maybe ASR will push the manufacturer’s a little bit, instead of waiting for others to post measurements.

There are some magazines over the years that measure speakers, but I wonder how accurate they were.
 

Anton S

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To what extent are the cumulative distortions in the electronics chain masked by speaker distortions? My WAG is that they are completely masked, presuming the electronics are even halfway decent, but that's just a guess. And even if they aren't, their audible contribution to signal reproduction must certainly be minimal.
 
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Yes, the two distortions of the electronics chain and then the speakers are compounded. The distortion is quite different between the two really....

Electronics when used in their typical operating range have a highly linear response - - the response is comparable across the frequency range. For example, you would never expect an amplifier to have a strong resonance at 300 Hz as an arbitrary example. Electronics have can still have harmonic and non-harmonic distortion and they are the main attributes that are looked at.

Speakers on the other hand have very high non-linearities in frequency response in addition to distortion. The linearity of frequency response is typically what is focused upon. Interestingly irregularities in frequency response are often a result of harmonic distortion, so the concepts are interrelated, but that's a different discussion. But speaker response is very far from linear.
I agree, and I don’t necessarily like a flat frequency response anyway, but I want my electronics to be transparent. I think speakers are a matter of choice, and I think they measure different in everyone’s room, especially at the MLP.

It would be nice if they published more specs though.
 
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To what extent are the cumulative distortions in the electronics chain masked by speaker distortions? My WAG is that they are completely masked, presuming the electronics are even halfway decent, but that's just a guess. And even if they aren't, their audible contribution to signal reproduction must certainly be minimal.
That’s what I’m asking and maybe one of the major contributors will comment a little more.

In the end it is what it is, but I would like to know more about speaker distortion, and why very few manufacturer’s talk about it.

So my question is… If speaker distortion is 5%, I’m just throwing a number out there, how trivial is even 1% in our electronics chain? Or is it compounded with speaker distortion.

We keep searching for gear with perfect measurements, are we even going to hear it because of speaker distortions?
 

DVDdoug

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First, I'll say that I NEVER hear distortion from ANYTHING that's not broken or "overdriven" into distortion!!! I also don't claim to have "golden ears". ;) And I don't listen to test-tones... Music contains a lot of harmonics that tends to drown-out "normal" harmonic distortion... That is, low level distortion from something that's not broken or overdriven.

Distortion from electronics should never be audible. If I'm buying an amplifier or receiver I'm not even going to look at the distortion spec. I'm going to look at the power output and features. I'm not going to bother with frequency response either because I expect it to be flat. If I can get an independently measured noise spec, I'd check that. (I don't trust the manufacturer's published specs.)

In general you're right. Speaker distortion is (usually) much worse than electronics distortion and if you can hear it, it's likely to mask any distortion from the electronics... if you can otherwise hear that.

But, the speakers and electronics could have different kinds of distortion or different distortion characteristics. You might not get regular-old harmonic distortion so the distortion characteristics could be different and theoretically that might get-through the speaker and be audible.. Or, you might have some weird tweeter distortion that doesn't mask the bass or midrange distortion from the electronics.

Lastly… why don’t speaker manufacturers talk about distortion in their speakers?
If you publish specs that say 5 or 10% nobody will buy them! ...The high-end electronics manufacturers wouldn't like it either because customers would realize that they don't need an amplifier 0.01% distortion.

P.S.
I guess I have heard distortion from SOME vinyl records where nothing was obviously broken... Maybe it was the record itself, or maybe my cartridge wasn't able to track those particular records.
 
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First, I'll say that I NEVER hear distortion from ANYTHING that's not broken or "overdriven" into distortion!!! I also don't claim to have "golden ears". ;) And I don't listen to test-tones... Music contains a lot of harmonics that tends to drown-out "normal" harmonic distortion... That is, low level distortion from something that's not broken or overdriven.

Distortion from electronics should never be audible. If I'm buying an amplifier or receiver I'm not even going to look at the distortion spec. I'm going to look at the power output and features. I'm not going to bother with frequency response either because I expect it to be flat. If I can get an independently measured noise spec, I'd check that. (I don't trust the manufacturer's published specs.)

In general you're right. Speaker distortion is (usually) much worse than electronics distortion and if you can hear it, it's likely to mask any distortion from the electronics... if you can otherwise hear that.

But, the speakers and electronics could have different kinds of distortion or different distortion characteristics. You might not get regular-old harmonic distortion so the distortion characteristics could be different and theoretically that might get-through the speaker and be audible.. Or, you might have some weird tweeter distortion that doesn't mask the bass or midrange distortion from the electronics.
Thanks for posting this, and in a way I can understand, it’s appreciated.

Your response was along the lines of what I believed was going out in my own set up. I have different electronics that are a decade old, and I can’t hear the difference between them and my new ones. So that got me thinking about speaker distortion, and I’ll be following the speaker review measurements a little more closely.
 

SIY

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Speaker distortion is a very tricky measurement and very difficult to interpret compared with electronics. Room and mic noise grossly contaminate the measurement, and of course there's a spatial aspect which doesn't exist in electronics (i.e., the measurements are different at every angle and at every distance).
 

Plcamp

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I suggest that Klippel tests at the driver level do tell you a lot about that driver’s distortion performance vs various different distortion mechanisms. If manufacturers routinely published Klippel results of their finished designs, that would also inform users fully.

Manufacturers may be reluctant to do so, I expect because the superlatives their marketeers have developed don’t match reality.

Anyway if you have not done so, I suggest look up Klippel testing, or watch one of the YouTube videos where a driver is examined.
 

Anton S

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...
I guess I have heard distortion from SOME vinyl records where nothing was obviously broken... Maybe it was the record itself, or maybe my cartridge wasn't able to track those particular records.
With vinyl, you're back at the mercy of an electro-mechanical transducer that's converting mechanical movement to an electrical signal. Transducers like mics, phono cartridges, and speakers are always the weakest links by far in any system that is performing as designed.
 

FeddyLost

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There are some magazines over the years that measure speakers, but I wonder how accurate they were.
At least much more accurate than ear of ordinary customer. )))
Maybe even more than ear of their reviewers...

My WAG is that they are completely masked, presuming the electronics are even halfway decent, but that's just a guess
IMO first we need to measure amp and passive speaker together, otherwise we completely don't know what is the level of distortion "in electronics".
And stereophile started to measure amps into "speaker load simulator". Some of them have non-flat FR into it.
Also IMO all the distortions in signal chain are multiplied, effectively raising the noise floor.
It's like applying polynomial transfer functions one over another. And that's the most simple model.
If speaker distortion is 5%, I’m just throwing a number out there, how trivial is even 1% in our electronics chain? Or is it compounded with speaker distortion.
We need clarification: where exactly those distortion numbers originated?
If we have nice and slim 3-way tower, and we managed to drive woofer and port into 5% distortion (often barely audible), while keeping MF+HF clean, and this 1% is clipping of our pityful amp, i think it will be obvious.
If we managed to drive speaker somehow into 5% of HD fullrange, it's better to keep away from this sound. This will not be pretty, and no 1% will break through baking voice coils...
Worst real case is small fullrange speaker, and if we overdrive it in bass, everything will be ruined.
Also, you can see reviews and imagine situation where one can really have 5% distortion in speaker (not in low bass) and 1% in amp. It's kind of weird pairing, i'd say.
 

dlaloum

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Over the years a number of reviews have touted the Quad electrostatics (and presumably other similar designs) for their very low distortion characteristics.

I believe figures of circa 0.5% THD were claimed. - I don't think I have seen any speakers that could honestly claim 0.5% within/over their operating frequency range outside of these...

Dipoles/bipoles and omni's seem to be ignored by the current "Klippel"/Spinorama style of measurement - which itself tends to assume a specific type of room, and specific speaker layouts - which themselves are based on optimal setups for specific speaker types.... all a bit circular/self referential?
 

restorer-john

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The good manufacturers were happy to publish their comprehensive distortion data back in the day. Here's an example, Yamaha NS-1000X from 1991/2:

Woofer:
1660807276710.png


Midrange:
1660807315974.png


Mid directivity:
1660807393552.png


Tweeter:
1660807440601.png


Tweeter directivity:
1660807473334.png


The whole system:
1660807537379.png


Power and system directivity:
1660807581093.png
 
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RayDunzl

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Are the two distortions compounded together, our signal chain before the speakers and the speakers themselves… or Is that not relevant and do we have to talk about them singularly? Simply put, does one have anything to do with the other?

Qualified by Experimentation Opinion:

The phase of the harmonic distortion produced by the speaker and other gear is additive - means they can boost or attenuate distortion coming from the speaker, depending on the phase and level of the harmonics.

Old Experiment:

 
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Qualified by Experimentation Opinion:

The phase of the harmonic distortion produced by the speaker and other gear is additive - means they can boost or attenuate distortion coming from the speaker, depending on the phase and level of the harmonics.

Old Experiment:

Hi, I appreciate that. Putting it in the terms that I can understand and I will definitely check out this link when I get five minutes. Thanks again.
 

RayDunzl

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I believe figures of circa 0.5% THD were claimed. - I don't think I have seen any speakers that could honestly claim 0.5% within/over their operating frequency range outside of these...

1998 vintage MartinLogan reQuest, 80dB SPL at the ten foot listening position

Crossover from 12" sealed woofer to panel at 180Hz, so, only showing panel here

1660829569646.png


The bump at 220Hz is related to the dipole bounce/cancellation (attenuates the fundamental at the measurement position) from the wall behind the speaker.
 
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dlaloum

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MartinLogan reQuest, 80dB SPL at the ten foot listening position

Crossover from woofer to panel at 180Hz, so, only showing panel here

View attachment 225167

The bump at 220Hz is related to the dipole bounce/cancellation (attenuates the fundamental at the measurement position) from the wall behind the speaker.
So yeah, as a genre, ESL's are among the lowest distortion speakers... (if not THE lowest distortion type...)
 
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