in-ceiling speaker recommendation for large space

[NiagaraPete]

In-wall is not an option -- unfortunately, I need to work within the constraints I have. So it's either an array of in-ceiling speakers or 2 towers positioned as mentioned earlier.

Solid walls? Even if towers are what ends up happening I’d still recommend looking at Genelec.

 

[TXavGuy]

Solid walls? Even if towers are what ends up happening I’d still recommend looking at Genelec.

It's a decorative wall that we can't make in-walls work with. Is there a specific reason you recommend Genelec over something like Revel F328Be, KEF Blade, or Perlisten S7t?

 

[NiagaraPete]

Solid walls? Even if towers are what ends up happening I’d still recommend looking at Genelec.

Another question. How would ceiling mount work for you? I’m thinking of construction and the possibility of adverse effects perhaps with a floor above.

 

[TXavGuy]

Another question. How would ceiling mount work for you? I’m thinking of construction and the possibility of adverse effects perhaps with a floor above.

It's single story construction, so there shouldn't be any construction issues with in-ceiling speakers. However, we will need to make accommodations for them, so I need to decide now(ish).

 

[NiagaraPete]

It's a decorative wall that we can't make in-walls work with. Is there a specific reason you recommend Genelec over something like Revel F328Be, KEF Blade, or Perlisten S7t?

Size, looks, performance and if money is not an issue the the Ones with subs and GLM.

The other brands you mentioned are also great and I’m not suggesting they are not.

 

[Harkwood Services]

How are you driving the speakers?
Will you be looking to downmix to mono or try to keep some stereo in the space?
When you say in-ceiling, what depth of void to you have above?

I've had to put some acoustic mats over in ceiling speakers before, to reduce the noise going into the floor above. If you have a floor above it's something to think about.

 

[NiagaraPete]

You seem to be stuck between 2 extremes. Ceiling mount with mediocre sound at best or high end towers that'll require big amps etc etc. My Genelec suggestion solves a couple of those issues. They can also be expanded for more room coverage and immersive sound if that is a future thought.

Maybe have a look at this:

Immersive Audio Hub - Genelec.com

Here you'll find a wealth of information to help you navigate the exciting world of immersive audio. Ready to get started?

www.genelec.com

 

[Matthias McCready]

The spacing I mentioned would be if I used towers. And I share the concern about playing loudly and being intelligible at the far points in the room, which is why the in-ceiling approach seems to be the least-bad option.

Each of these has potential problems:

1) Speakers at the far side of the room will have increased room interaction, and if you go far enough you will start to encounter high frequency air loss (which is minimal at this distance, but still a minor consideration).

2) Ceiling speakers don't have directionality, so timing can be difficult.

In situations where there is a low-ceiling going with a distributed system is advantageous, obviously you are thinking along these lines with ceiling speakers. However a directional system can offer the advance of having delays.

This is common in venue installs. Essentially you may use larger speaker at the front, and then use appropriately placed delay or "fill" speakers. Fill speakers do not need to be large as they are just mostly filling HF detail and the directional frequencies. Bass and lowmids, especially in a room tend to travel well enough; these frequencies are also harder to fill in as they require cardioid reinforcement, to maintain directionality in frequencies that would otherwise be omni direction, compared to the size of the box.

The trick with delays, is that keeping them directly in-line with the main speakers (ie not splaying anything inwards) tends to make timing much easier, and increased overall summation.

This would put you solidly in a commercial product family type though: Both Danley Sound Labs and Meyer Sound make such products.

 

[Flaesh]

and being intelligible

It makes sense, but the ceiling is quite high. How reverberant room is?
May you consider pendant speakers?

 

[NiagaraPete]

A member here just bought something like this but I can't find his post.

2 x 8351B + 2 x W371A - Genelec.com

The W371 complements the point source performance of the 8351 to create a full-range system with unrivalled directivity, coherency and freedom from negative room influences. Hearing is believing.

www.genelec.com

 

[TXavGuy]

How are you driving the speakers?
Will you be looking to downmix to mono or try to keep some stereo in the space?
When you say in-ceiling, what depth of void to you have above?

I've had to put some acoustic mats over in ceiling speakers before, to reduce the noise going into the floor above. If you have a floor above it's something to think about.

I will drive them however they need to be driven...no constraints in that regard. Was planning to keep stereo, as I think this will still provide better sound. I have whatever sized void I need (within reason) -- it's new construction, and single story.

 

[TXavGuy]

You seem to be stuck between 2 extremes. Ceiling mount with mediocre sound at best or high end towers that'll require big amps etc etc. My Genelec suggestion solves a couple of those issues. They can also be expanded for more room coverage and immersive sound if that is a future thought.

Maybe have a look at this:

Immersive Audio Hub - Genelec.com

Here you'll find a wealth of information to help you navigate the exciting world of immersive audio. Ready to get started?

www.genelec.com

Yes, it is 2 extremes. And the sound quality from the high-end towers will be lost on the room because of poor acoustics, yet something big enough to fill the space is needed (and I also have aesthetics to deal with). I will look more into the Genelec solution, but that seems to be geared more toward Atmos/Auro3D stuff than 2 channel, and the size of the speakers is still an issue.

 

[TXavGuy]

Each of these has potential problems:

1) Speakers at the far side of the room will have increased room interaction, and if you go far enough you will start to encounter high frequency air loss (which is minimal at this distance, but still a minor consideration).

2) Ceiling speakers don't have directionality, so timing can be difficult.

In situations where there is a low-ceiling going with a distributed system is advantageous, obviously you are thinking along these lines with ceiling speakers. However a directional system can offer the advance of having delays.

This is common in venue installs. Essentially you may use larger speaker at the front, and then use appropriately placed delay or "fill" speakers. Fill speakers do not need to be large as they are just mostly filling HF detail and the directional frequencies. Bass and lowmids, especially in a room tend to travel well enough; these frequencies are also harder to fill in as they require cardioid reinforcement, to maintain directionality in frequencies that would otherwise be omni direction, compared to the size of the box.

The trick with delays, is that keeping them directly in-line with the main speakers (ie not splaying anything inwards) tends to make timing much easier, and increased overall summation.

This would put you solidly in a commercial product family type though: Both Danley Sound Labs and Meyer Sound make such products.

Definitely yes on #1. For #2, I assume that can be handled pretty easily using DSP, yes? I am looking into the Meyer Sound options already, and will add Danley to my list. Thanks!

 

[TXavGuy]

It makes sense, but the ceiling is quite high. How reverberant room is?
May you consider pendant speakers?

The room is going to have tile floors, one side wall is mostly glass, the front wall is stone, and the rest is a mix of wood composite, appliances, stone, and some sheetrock. So, a disaster I don't think pendants are viable from an aesthetic perspective, unfortunately.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Yes, it is 2 extremes. And the sound quality from the high-end towers will be lost on the room because of poor acoustics, yet something big enough to fill the space is needed (and I also have aesthetics to deal with). I will look more into the Genelec solution, but that seems to be geared more toward Atmos/Auro3D stuff than 2 channel, and the size of the speakers is still an issue.

In the context of the like yes it is Atmos but they have all sorts of config options for having mains and backups around your space to fill the space.

 

[Matthias McCready]

Definitely yes on #1. For #2, I assume that can be handled pretty easily using DSP, yes? I am looking into the Meyer Sound options already, and will add Danley to my list. Thanks!

Let me explain a little more, to clarify to make sure we are thinking the same thing.

Ceiling speakers have a cardioid pattern, and as the speaker is mounted in the ceiling then the speakers pattern is down, and in this sense it is "omn," meaning that walking in any direction below the speaker (left, right, forward, backward) the coverage will be the same, permitting you are the same relative distance from the speaker.

See the figure above.

In this vein a ceiling speaker will not have a direction going down a room, DSP could help and make one end of the room feel good, but it will make the other end feel worse, as these speakers are essentially omni in the downward direction.

If the speakers are mounted with brackets (something such as Danley Nano or Meyer MM-4XP, these will be directional. Hereby delay would be both necessitated and quite helpful.

Ignore that this next figure is very much for a PA, and not cute home speakers, but the same lessons in physics and time arrival apply!

----

If I was installing ceiling speakers, I probably would not delay them at all; the only time I have usually delayed ceiling speakers is when they are taking over coverage from a directional system, in which case I make that handoff feel as good as I can, and delay all of the ceiling speakers to that.

If I was installing something else I would want to make sure there is a direction going down the room.

---

Does that help?

 

[TXavGuy]

Let me explain a little more, to clarify to make sure we are thinking the same thing.

Ceiling speakers have a cardioid pattern, and as the speaker is mounted in the ceiling then the speakers pattern is down, and in this sense it is "omn," meaning that walking in any direction below the speaker (left, right, forward, backward) the coverage will be the same, permitting you are the same relative distance from the speaker.

View attachment 224604

See the figure above.

In this vein a ceiling speaker will not have a direction going down a room, DSP could help and make one end of the room feel good, but it will make the other end feel worse, as these speakers are essentially omni in the downward direction.

If the speakers are mounted with brackets (something such as Danley Nano or Meyer MM-4XP, these will be directional. Hereby delay would be both necessitated and quite helpful.

Ignore that this next figure is very much for a PA, and not cute home speakers, but the same lessons in physics and time arrival apply!

View attachment 224605

----

If I was installing ceiling speakers, I probably would not delay them at all; the only time I have usually delayed ceiling speakers is when they are taking over coverage from a directional system, in which case I make that handoff feel as good as I can, and delay all of the ceiling speakers to that.

If I was installing something else I would want to make sure there is a direction going down the room.

---

Does that help?

Yes that does help, I think. I need to reflect on it (no pun intended) a bit more....you clearly are much more on top of this topic than I am. I assume this is all complicated by using multiple pairs of in-ceiling speakers, which is what I would have in my room.

 

[Matthias McCready]

Yes that does help, I think. I need to reflect on it (no pun intended) a bit more....you clearly are much more on top of this topic than I am. I assume this is all complicated by using multiple pairs of in-ceiling speakers, which is what I would have in my room.

It is kinda my day job, so I would hope so!

Honestly the most important thing with ceiling speakers is matching up the coverage angles with head height, and using that to define distance between speakers and the amount of them.

Here is some homework for you to read.

 

[TXavGuy]

It is kinda my day job, so I would hope so!

Honestly the most important thing with ceiling speakers is matching up the coverage angles with head height, and using that to define distance between speakers and the amount of them.

Here is some homework for you to read.

That sounds like a succinct description of the core challenge. That link looks helpful; I will check it out when I have some time to focus on it. Thanks!

 

[Matthias McCready]

That sounds like a succinct description of the core challenge. That link looks helpful; I will check it out when I have some time to focus on it. Thanks!

Also one other idea for you to mull over:

Note this is not necessarily the "right way," but it is a way to think about distributed systems is to flip L/R as you go between speakers. The advantage of this is that anything which is in the stereo domain will have less comb filtering in the hand-off zones between speakers while preserving "stereo information" throughout the whole room.

This is a different mode of thinking than having a listening room, as once you are designing a distributed system, it is never truly "stereo" anymore, it is some version of Mono or exploded mono usually, as you never fully in coverage of both L/R.

So down the length of your room you could have:

Option 1 (this would be better for a directional system):

L R
L R
L R
L R
L R

Option 2 (This would probably be better for a ceiling speaker only system):

L R
R L
L R
R L
L R