Heard a Revel and JBL Synthesis for the first time: F208, F228Be, 4367. A surprise for sure!

[Bleib]

View attachment 222004

The elevated treble is not really seen in measurements. The biases of West Coast sound are just biases* (when looking at modern JBLs).

I think a key difference is avoiding compression at high SPLs even if this can introduce some distortion. To get low distortion and high SPLs, you need to get into the K2, 4365, Everest line of gear. The 4367 is exceptional but the Revel Salon2 does better for distortion esp at lower SPLs but perhaps maybe not as good as the Salon’s.

The K2 and Everest are more expensive than the Revel’s and are engineered with spinorama in mind.

Well, there are of course many JBL, and the only impression I have heard of them is at some well done sound recordings on YT where they are compared to other speakers as well as the source file. Lots of speakers add a bit treble. But as I said, I might be wrong.
Doesn't matter though, anyone can buy what they like.

 

[Bugal1998]

View attachment 222004

The elevated treble is not really seen in measurements. The biases of West Coast sound are just biases* (when looking at modern JBLs).

I think a key difference is avoiding compression at high SPLs even if this can introduce some distortion. To get low distortion and high SPLs, you need to get into the K2, 4365, Everest line of gear. The 4367 is exceptional but the Revel Salon2 does better for distortion esp at lower SPLs but perhaps maybe not as good as the Salon’s.

The K2 and Everest are more expensive than the Revel’s and are engineered with spinorama in mind.

I wish I could recall where I heard it-- but it was a trustworthy/imformed/official source--stating that JBL's brand emphasis was dynamics and output, while Revel was focused on spaciousness and imaging (or something along those lines).

The experiences of many listeners, OP evidently included, seems to validate that the respective Harman brands are hitting their target performance objectives.

Said another way, the subjective feedback aligning with the respective brand product strategies probably shouldn't be a surprise.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Apologies if I missed a prior post, but in the spirit of the OP's question, did you hear a JBL speaker recently that's prompting you to consider changing your mind?

Recently no, however some folks here seem to like new JBL’s so I might break my pledge. Currently I’m a Genelec groupie.

 

[Duke]

How many people bring a blindfold when they go to an audio store to shop for speakers?

I bring my eyelids, they work just as well.

Seriously, I find that eliminating visual stimuli is extremely helpful in extracting as much useful information as possible from a listening session, particularly if under time constraints. The brain has limited capacity for paying attention, and closing the eyes while listening intensely removes a roomful of otherwise inevitable distractions. It also makes people think you're weird, which is a badge of honor in this hobby.

Fifteen or twenty years ago home theater setups were fairly common at high-end audio shows. A great soundtrack with great video was immensely enjoyable, but closing the eyes would instantly reveal sonic issues that I had been oblivious to just a few seconds before.

So if you don't bring your blindfold, AT LEAST bring your eyelids!

(At home, I virtually always turn the lights out for serious listening. And yes I have tape over the LED's on my equipment, because to me it is more relaxing to have eyes open and see nothing than to keep my eyes shut. The tape also make people think you're weird even before you turn the lights out.)

 

[Newman]

Since (IIRC more than one person) has introduced the suggestion to this thread that horn speakers are more suited to certain music types and less to other types, or need 'voicing' per music type, or suit person A but not person B, let me introduce Floyd Toole's published thought on that general principle:-

 

[GXAlan]

The last JBL’s I listened to were L300’s. Absolutely horrible, I swore I’d never waste my time again with JBL.
40 years have passed and I might change my mind.

The original L300 does have, in fact, the West Coast sound of the older JBL 4311 era.
src: https://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_l300.pdf

Here is that 4311 response curve for comparison. It's basically a smiley-face EQ with a hump around 500-800 Hz give or take.

 

[Bugal1998]

Recently no, however some folks here seem to like new JBL’s so I might break my pledge. Currently I’m a Genelec groupie.

Nice. I'd like to experience Genelec in a well setup system.

 

[ROOSKIE]

(At home, I virtually always turn the lights out for serious listening. And yes I have tape over the LED's on my equipment, because to me it is more relaxing to have eyes open and see nothing than to keep my eyes shut. The tape also make people think you're weird even before you turn the lights out.)

I cover the LED's as well and listen in the near dark most often.
Anyone who thinks that is weird has not encountered the searing LED of 2022. (why o' why are they so bright?)
I don't enjoy listening with my eyes closed at all. I completely changes the experience for me. I deff like them open as it helps me "see" the sound if you will.

What the...??

The rest of my post didn't lay down for you what I was throwing down?
Taken out of context I must seem so strange.
Oh well. Anyway, thinking about your handle, I also love Paul Newman and my favorite movie he is in is ,"Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid", good thing Sundance was so quick.

 

[Chromatischism]

F228Be: Sounded better to me, less low end but more defined maybe, midrange the same, top end seemed more defined to me. Most likely as a result of the Be tweeter?

I will say as well that my REVEL M126be speakers can sound quite alive and play extremely loud with no signs of stress, they are reasonably close to the 4309 in the "live" character and in my opinion very good speakers. I do think there is something to that Be tweeter. It just has vibrancy for days and yet no harshness or brashness. It is quite a tweeter. Though of course I will never know if it is actually due the Be nature.

Yeah, it is my position that it is marketing until proven otherwise. I bet you can get a textile dome to sound the same.

Now, there may be other benefits. Maybe they preferred it for output reasons.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Since (IIRC more than one person) has introduced the suggestion to this thread that horn speakers are more suited to certain music types and less to other types, or need 'voicing' per music type, or suit person A but not person B, let me introduce Floyd Toole's published thought on that general principle:-

View attachment 222019

I don't see Nate there.
He used to have Boston acoustics 6.43 Pro components that we custom installed in his car.(circa 1995-6)
He turned the treble up to 10 and the volume up to 11.
He couldn't get enough treble.
We need a dial for Nate and Midwestern USA life.

He loved Prince, Guns & Roses, Warren G & Nate Dog and The Dave Matthews Band.
He had old Cerwin Vega's, the real deal with made in USA and that SPL at all costs design(and likely distortion from the under-gods)
We aimed them out the window and at full volume and shot hoops, my poor neighbors.


Anyway the contemporary JBL speakers I am interested in that have horns are ones such as the 4309 and 4349, the 700line and the HDI lines and in my dreams the M2. On all of these I am certain JBL wants them called waveguides and for good reason.

I am not in the camp that is focused on horns being this or that, I can say that not all of my speakers are equally up to the task of all types of music and all types of recording issues. It is just the way it is. Tone controls can be a part of it and Toole is clearly a fan of tone and tilt controls. Some things are fixed, dispersion as a rotational (as in rotating a few speakers) element is really hard to dismiss.

I certainly don't think that a small apartment in England or Japan is fit for the same speaker as a 30x22 foot living room open to other areas in the US. As for "dials" most JBL PA speakers have an OEM speech setting among other settings that are markedly similar to the above. In any case I am not defending the idea one buys a speaker based on one's music preference but you better audition(at home) with the stuff you like most and use most and if your tastes are wildly various like mine get up on the tone control or just accept a speaker that is mostly good 8/10 all the time. (or buy extra speakers like I have done but I have my reasons & it is not really to swap for content)

I do think a good speaker should sound good on most things but a speaker that is a 8/10 on everything might not satisfy when you really crave that 10/10 on certain stuff.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Since (IIRC more than one person) has introduced the suggestion to this thread that horn speakers are more suited to certain music types and less to other types, or need 'voicing' per music type, or suit person A but not person B, let me introduce Floyd Toole's published thought on that general principle:-

View attachment 222019

Thank you. Very informative, and not far from the truth. I do it with two knobs, but I'm probably more efficient than most.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

View attachment 222020

The original L300 does have, in fact, the West Coast sound of the older JBL 4311 era.
src: https://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_l300.pdf

Here is that 4311 response curve for comparison. It's basically a smiley-face EQ with a hump around 500-800 Hz give or take.
View attachment 222021

This is a response I took last week of my JBL 4412s - similar.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Yeah, it is my position that it is marketing until proven otherwise. I bet you can get a textile dome to sound the same.

Now, there may be other benefits. Maybe they preferred it for output reasons.

I do a lot of DIY and just can't spring for BE tweeters in my silly home brewed experiments.

I can say those tweeters as implemented in the REVEL are impressive for whatever reason. Truly.

Anyway it would be interesting to hear a textile dome based design that does sound like these. I just haven't yet. I have had a lot of different designs using various tweeter materials in front of my ears now. I have liked and disliked designs using all materials. That said, right now designs using the metal based tweeters have really filled in most of my top spots. So many variables of course but when 7 or 8 out of 10 of my favorite speakers have metal of some sort involved in tweeter it is interesting for sure. And those textiles that made the "top 10" did not usually do so because they sound like the metal designs.
So far it is a shrill quality, or a nasally quality that creeps in to textiles that keeps me from falling for them or they are euphonic and then I do indeed like them but then they are not sounding like the vibrant sound I seem to enjoy from a good metal dome based design. One exception is the 4309 which I thought was metal at first it and would fool me for sure.*

Who knows for sure. BE is a hot seller in $$$$ HIFI and status symbol for many manufactures pricey lines. No doubt that is factor on some level.

* a lot of folks don't like the GF notes but I will note that nearly all of the speakers my GF has truly loved, excepting just 2 pairs (the 530 & 4309), had metal tweeters even the BMR RAAL ribbon uses metal and she and I love them. She has no real idea what material she is listening to but I am keeping notes as I figure out what is going on. No doubt overall tonality is also at play and the various dispersions in designs we have tested. Still a major victory so far for metal tweets, though not to suggest that metal is obviously better than other materials for the sound we like. I don't know that and only have hers and my opinions based on what has been experienced thus far..

 

[Chromatischism]

So far it is a shrill quality, or a nasally quality that creeps in to textiles that keeps me from falling for them or they are euphonic and then I do indeed like them but then they are not sounding like the vibrant sound I seem to enjoy from a good metal dome based design.

How could you quantify such a thing though if a soft dome measures like this?

A couple dB here and there but pretty flat. SB Acoustics.

SB Acoustics SB19ST-C000-4 Tested - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum

Want a second or third opinion about your speaker cabinet design or other audio related problem? Post your question or comment on the Technical Discussion Board. Hundreds of technicians, engineers, and hobbyists, nationwide read and discuss electronics related questions each week. We welcome...

techtalk.parts-express.com

Anyway it's a raw response and not exactly what you'll get in a speaker box, but just trying to figure out what about the driver would cause that.

 

[fpitas]

Was that ca fall 2018? If so I heard the same setup in their basement at the old Madison Ave Harman store. For me it wasn’t close: Salon2 sounded wide open and the old fashioned horns were closed in. IMO the modern JBLs put up much more of a fight.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The S9900s in the basement theater room were wide open and spectacular sounding to me. The Salon2s might have been a hair more refined, but not as dynamic. In any event, I'd gladly own either if I wasn't a DIYer.

 

[fpitas]

How many people bring a blindfold when they go to an audio store to shop for speakers?

No blindfold, but I do close my eyes for voicing experiments at home. Oddly, sometimes things sound better (or worse) with my eyes closed.

 

[GXAlan]

This is a response I took last week of my JBL 4412s - similar.

And I would definitely say that the classic JBL speakers really do sound great despite the measured issues. Part of the reason is the circle of confusion with recording engineers using similar gear in the 70s and 80s. Additionally, I can imagine older bookshelf speakers really being put in bookshelves, which would have increased the bass to give it a more downward slope than the anechoic measurement.

If you want a vintage West Coast sound, there are plenty of vintage JBLs out there.

If you want a modern, measures well speaker, you still cannot rule out JBL. For any US reader, the JBL Studio 530 is a no-brainer to try out just to hear what a budget horn speaker can do. Those go on sale for silly low prices and given the price of gasoline and everything else nowadays, a small price to pay for hours of audio tweaking and A/B comparisons to keep you occupied.

I strongly believe that if audiophiles have multiple listening rooms that they are not using the same measuring speakers in every room.

 

[fpitas]

As a side note for you JBL L300 owners, Nelson Pass has an updated crossover which makes significant improvements:

https://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_l300.pdf

Gotta admit, the original was kinda scary looking.

 

[fredoamigo]

As a side note for you JBL L300 owners, Nelson Pass has an updated crossover which makes significant improvements:

https://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_l300.pdf

Gotta admit, the original was kinda scary looking.

I read somewhere that the woofer of the 4367 (2216Nd-1) fits very well on the L300... however, an Anne will never become a race horse. ( I never listened to L 300 )

 

[fpitas]

I read somewhere that the woofer of the 4367 (2216Nd-1) fits very well on the L300... however, an Anne will never become a race horse. ( I never listened to L 300 )

They may have kept the opening and bolt circle etc. I'd wonder if the impedance curve matched well enough that the crossover still worked correctly.