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Topping E50 Review (Balanced DAC)

yanm

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Fyi, I did the measurements yesterday and can confirm that you are correct, that the preamp was responsible. While they both (preamp and the E50 dac) output 2X the voltage from their balanced outputs, the final output from the preamp's XLRs remained practical the same whether I selected the unbalanced or balanced inputs to the preamp or not.

There is a very slight (decimal points) difference, measurable but not audible (to me anyway). Cambridge Audio's literature said the preamp was "fully differential" but I think you are right, the internal architecture must have something to do with making sue the XLR output remain at the same level even if the unbalanced inputs (connected to the E50's unbalanced outputs) are selected.

In reading the manual, I know realize the preamp does allow gain trim adjustments for each channel so I could have just use that feature to level match the two amps I am AB'ing without using the dual outputs (RCA and XLR) and variable volume. Not going to waste time now though as I have everything set up now to have the two level matched.


View attachment 219918
Makes sense.

It would be interesting is to see if you can perceive a noise-level difference between XLR and RCA. For example, set the preamp at maximum volume level (ensuring to not play anything to preserve your hearing) and try to hear the noise floor. And if it is audible*, if there is an audible difference between XLR and RCA. My understanding is that XLR inherently provides 6dB better signal-to-noise ratio (and hence 6dB lower noise floor at a given matched volume level). That’s an additional advantage with respect to more EMI-robust interconnects…

In my system I can hear some very faint noise if I put my ear right at the twitter. As I use the E50 as (digital) preamp, I can confirm that the noise level is perceptively the same at any volume settings of the DAC.

* some preamp and DAV have an auto-mute function, which invalidate such tests.
 

pongpaktech

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I'm looking at getting this for some future proofing so I don't have to get another dac for a while. I'm initially planning to pair it with a L30 or similar amp which I think would be a good pairing but how well does the e50 pair with higher end balanced amps?
 

yanm

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Measurements show that you should worry the other way around.
If the "high end" amps can keep up with this ;)
There are indeed few power amplifiers quieter than the E50 out there. For example, Benchmark’s AHB2 has an output noise floor of 7.2uVrms (A-weighted). The AHB2 amplifies the input by 9.2, 17, or 23dB, that is 2.9x, 7.1x, or 14.1x: the input-referred noise is thus 2.5, 1.0, or 0.51uVrms (I am pretty sure that the output noise of the AHB2 should increase with increasing gain settings but could not find different values in the specs).

Now, the noise floor of the E50 is only 2.3 uVrms (also A-weighted), this means that at the noise of the DAC and AHB2 are evenly contributing to the total noise at the lowest AHB2’s gain settings but that the E50 noise dominates at other gain settings. Still, because the AHB2 is one of the quietest amplifiers there is, many power amplifiers may contribute more to the output noise than the E50. This is even truer if a good preamp (that further lowers the noise floor at typical listening volume) is added between the E50 and the power amplifier.

I'm looking at getting this for some future proofing so I don't have to get another dac for a while. I'm initially planning to pair it with a L30 or similar amp which I think would be a good pairing but how well does the e50 pair with higher end balanced amps?
I’m using the E50 with AHB2 and I’m pretty happy with the combination. I am even using the (digital) volume control of the E50 as the overall noise floor is below hearing threshold for the sensitivity of my loudspeakers. If you use the L30 with gain settings at 0dB, the noise of the E50 becomes larger than that of the L30 only for volume settings higher than about -15dBFS (2.3uVrms/0.3uVrms/sqrt(2) = 5.43 = 15dB), which is likely very loud. So, I would also say that it is a good match. I am not sure that higher-end headphone amplifiers are much quieter than the L30… anyway it all depends on the sensitivity of your headphone: you can then check if the noise (of the DAC and amp) is below the threshold of hearing.

(typos corrections)
 
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Eldus

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I just installed it. Works well so far. DSD seems to start playback a tad quicker through Foobar2k.
 

Eldus

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One behavior that is new is that it remembers what input you selected after powering it off then on again. I was on 1.06fw before.
 

Interference

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Thought about giving a field report.

I have been using my E50 for about 8 months. Connected via USB to a Raspberry Pi 3B+ running Moode Audio and via TOSLINK to a Samsung AU8000 TV (previously a Xiaomi Mi Box Android TV Box). It's driving (balanced) a Hypex Class D amplifier based on the NC252MP module (assembled by Audiophonics).

The combination works very nicely and I believe it makes one of the most cost-effective solutions for a digital sources -only system.

(I may consider swapping it for a TEAC UD-503 in the future, to gain a good quality headphone output and an analog line-level input.)
 

respice finem

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EX5 is pretty close minus the DSP function.
Since I have both: Yes, and no. Measurements-wise, yes, but, the remote, the display, the manual... This is why I wonder if it's a reasonable goal to pursue an "RME killer", for the near future. If I were Topping, I would probably not (yet), for one reason: When they get there, the price will be, maybe not on par, but only slightly below the RME. In this situation, I would expect most people to still buy the RME, even if it would be only for "bragging rights" and such.

Volkswagen had once tried it with the Phaeton (which was excellent BTW). We know the outcome.

Once Topping would have arrived at the "esteem level" of RME, it would be another story...
Which is why good support and "customer experience" is so important.
 
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Overseas

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RCA (unbalanced) output still not measured by Amir? Cause it was not in the initial review as I know.

Edit. Yes, he did.
 

koravei

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Hey guys, i just installed the new firmware version 1.07. Is it me, or now the sound is somehow dull, with less depth and sound stage.
Please, if someone knows what are the changes in this firmware, maybe JohnYang1997 can help?
 

yanm

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Hey guys, i just installed the new firmware version 1.07. Is it me, or now the sound is somehow dull, with less depth and sound stage.
Please, if someone knows what are the changes in this firmware, maybe JohnYang1997 can help?
It is quite unlikely that the sound would change so drastically with a firmware update. A more likely possibility is that the volume has been somehow slightly reduced (our brain typically equate a volume increase of up to 1-1.5dB as better sound rather than louder).

Unfortunately, Topping is not giving a lot of details for their firmware updates, so we don’t know if they tweaked volume-related parameters…
 

respice finem

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It is quite unlikely that the sound would change so drastically with a firmware update. A more likely possibility is that the volume has been somehow slightly reduced (our brain typically equate a volume increase of up to 1-1.5dB as better sound rather than louder).

Unfortunately, Topping is not giving a lot of details for their firmware updates, so we don’t know if they tweaked volume-related parameters…
This. Without a DSP, a DAC should not "sound" anyway, just convert digital signals to analog. If it really does (color the) sound, it's likely broken.

Sidenote / subjective: I'm a very lazy firmware updater, generally if no problem = no update. Saves much hassle sometimes.
"If it works, don't fix it".
 
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Toku

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Hey guys, i just installed the new firmware version 1.07. Is it me, or now the sound is somehow dull, with less depth and sound stage.
Please, if someone knows what are the changes in this firmware, maybe JohnYang1997 can help?
I don't feel that change on my E50.
I think that the display of MQA that was sometimes strange has been improved.
How about going back from Ver 1.07 to Ver 1.06 and comparing them?
 

Eldus

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Hey guys, i just installed the new firmware version 1.07. Is it me, or now the sound is somehow dull, with less depth and sound stage.
Please, if someone knows what are the changes in this firmware, maybe JohnYang1997 can help?
You might have allergies or something. Congestion, especially of the deep-sinus variety is an audio enthusiasts plague. For me at least. I am amazed many times a year by what congestion does to sound when you have a pop or use a Netipot type rinse for a while. You forget what it used to sound like until it clears up.
 

yanm

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Sidenote / subjective: I'm a very lazy firmware updater, generally if no problem = no update. Saves much hassle sometimes.
"If it works, don't fix it".
It is indeed the most sensible approach, especially given that new features aren’t likely to be added to a DAC like the E50. That said, I love to tinker around and just updated anyway (with luck it will improve the auto on feature). On change I notice is that I could perform the update from my Mac, the tool shipped with the previous firmware never worked for me before…
 

koravei

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I don't feel that change on my E50.
I think that the display of MQA that was sometimes strange has been improved.
How about going back from Ver 1.07 to Ver 1.06 and comparing them?
This is a good idea! Can someone share firmware v.1.06, because it's no longer available for download.
 

respice finem

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Alas, there's a bias trap waiting (when comparing two firmwares on the same device by hearing): Can you remember small acoustic details for several minutes? And is the level 100% equal?
 

koravei

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Alas, there's a bias trap waiting (when comparing two firmwares on the same device by hearing): Can you remember small acoustic details for several minutes? And is the level 100% equal?
Yes i can, i have reference music for hearing. I listen to some high level and remember the position of L50's volume knob, then my ears relax and i try again. As Eldus said, it's possible to be some allergy, but i remember that the middle level was plenty enough and i rarely pushed the volume knob to the max. Now the high level is the same as the middle. Please, can someone share firmware v.1.06.
 
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